Klaivaskar - Klaive Dueling

[Josh]

Klaivaskar - Klaive Dueling


Ok folk down to silver tacks. What we have below are some clarifications on klavie dueling due to its increasing popularity and conflicting opinions as to how it is run. Please note that these changes are SOFT CHANGES! To those who don't understand that notion, a soft change is one that is not permanent and is still in review. We are still discussing how to solidify this aspect of combat and flavor of Werewolf but we wanted to make sure, for now, everyone was on the same page and using the same rules.


- When using Klaivaskar you MUST use a Klaive. It does not have to be a sword, but it must be a completed fetish klaive. Your opponent's weapon choice is irrelevant.


- When using the Silver Shield maneuver the successes scored on the roll are extra dice to parry. This is for clarification and balance due to the vague language of the maneuver.


- When using Klaivaskar, the maneuvers that list damage as 'weapon' it is refering to the dice from the weapon. It is the damage dice of the weapon plus any bonus dice from the maneuver. This does NOT include the garou's strength (Example: Stop Hit has a damage listing of weapon + 2. So a grand klaive using stop hit would have 3 dice [klaive] + 2 dice [maneuver]).


- To use the Klaivaskar specific maneuvers you must use the ability Klaivaskar (Staff understands that this is a change and you may use melee as previously but near the end of the Eight Week Initiative this will likely be in effect, so those that wish to use Klaivaskar should begin to buy it up to the levels they are looking to have).


- Klaivaskar is to be a secondary ability and is to be purchased at primary costs (i.e. 2/1/2/3/4 exp for 1-5).


If you have any questions feel free to ask staff or if players would like to openly discuss this feel free below.


-AST Starscream

[Wilhelm Opens-the-Way]

I have many questions:

- When using Klaivaskar you MUST use a Klaive. It does not have to be a sword, but it must be a completed fetish klaive. Your opponent's weapon choice is irrelevant.

My character has been using a 'signature' weapon, his Fae weapon to perform Klaviskar manuvers for the entire run of the character so far. Please justify/explain why and how this character can suddenly no longer do so.

Before you answer, please consider the following:

There are several very real in character consequences for 'pulling silver' on another Garou. It has been, and may continue to be, immediate justification to go from a 'civilized' dual or challenge to a lethal killboxable offense to pull an Aggrivated Silver damage-dealing Klaive on a PC or NPC rather than a blade that does only lethal damage. Given that every combat the character has ever been in that involved swordplay except one was with a blade other than a Klaive, this would have completely changed the core of the character's combat methodology, the way the character was percieved by others, etc.

Specifically, without access to Klaviskar manuvers this change directly hobbles a 'defender' build who wishes to use their skills to defend themselves and others in non-deadly combats and challenges where using a Klaive would be seen as simply an intent to murder. Consider the fight between Rob's character and Maya. The instant silver arrived on the scene, killing Maya became a more acceptable option.

If your primary argument is that it's closer to what you interpret the book to intend, I would point to the year of Wilhelm NOT instantaneously lethally commiting to ONLY deadly Garou vs. Garou combats as a viable playtest as to why leaving these manuvers open to other swords is a good idea.

All the bullets in every gun bunnies guns shouldn't be silver - neither should all the blades used with any skill be.

It seems as if below the cost (XP) for Klaviskar has been doubled (ish), yet above, the effectiveness is halved. This seems unfair, especially considering that the relative value of most manuvers each contain their own inherent drawbacks.

- When using the Silver Shield maneuver the successes scored on the roll are extra dice to parry. This is for clarification and balance due to the vague language of the maneuver.

As I have previously understood it, this is not a change, but thanks for putting the clarification in print.

- When using Klaivaskar, the maneuvers that list damage as 'weapon' it is refering to the dice from the weapon. It is the damage dice of the weapon plus any bonus dice from the maneuver. This does NOT include the garou's strength (Example: Stop Hit has a damage listing of weapon + 2. So a grand klaive using stop hit would have 3 dice [klaive] + 2 dice [maneuver]).

Can the staff please provide an example of any other melee attack where strength is not applied to the damage? I don't see any other precident for this particular clarification.

- To use the Klaivaskar specific maneuvers you must use the ability Klaivaskar (Staff understands that this is a change and you may use melee as previously but near the end of the Eight Week Initiative this will likely be in effect, so those that wish to use Klaivaskar should begin to buy it up to the levels they are looking to have).

I have purchased the same levels of Klaviskar as Melee for my PC, having been told that I needed both for some reason. If this is somehow a change, do I need regular Melee for my character to be able use a knife for example? Or does Klaviskar count as 'advanced melee' for Garou, allowing me to get some points back from my base creation points that I spent on Melee?

This is a character-changing modification for me, not just a system one. I hope that the examples provided earlier help you understand why that is.

Consider the reaction to Wilhelm defending against Sarah's character's attempted bitch-slap last game with a silver Klaive rather than a Fae one. That would have been a whole different scene.

From a logical story standpoint - not every Cub gets a Klaive - and training with lethal silver because you can't possibly do a Klaviskar manuver with a normal blade seems illogical too. Cubs lopping their own limbs off and killing themselves seems like sort of a goony training regimen. Even Jedi get the Force to keep them from becoming limbless younglings on day one of lightsaber practice.

- Klaivaskar is to become a primary ability and is to be purchased at primary costs (i.e. 3/2/4/6/8 exp for 1-5).

This places me into 'XP debt' for abilities my character has been using for a long time, the timing of which could be critical to my character's development of other abilities I had already banked XP for. How will the staff work with folks in this kind of situation?

Thanks, and I look forward to your responses.

- Chris

[Magic Rob]

Replies in-lineish.

Apr 6, 2011 15:01:17 GMT -8 Wilhelm Opens-the-Way said:

I have many questions:

- When using Klaivaskar you MUST use a Klaive. It does not have to be a sword, but it must be a completed fetish klaive. Your opponent's weapon choice is irrelevant.

My character has been using a 'signature' weapon, his Fae weapon to perform Klaviskar manuvers for the entire run of the character so far. Please justify/explain why and how this character can suddenly no longer do so.

There are many little points that follow this, but I'll start here: this is called 'klaive dueling', not 'sword dueling'. Moving on.

There are several very real in character consequences for 'pulling silver' on another Garou. It has been, and may continue to be, immediate justification to go from a 'civilized' dual or challenge to a lethal killboxable offense to pull an Aggrivated Silver damage-dealing Klaive on a PC or NPC rather than a blade that does only lethal damage. Given that every combat the character has ever been in that involved swordplay except one was with a blade other than a Klaive, this would have completely changed the core of the character's combat methodology, the way the character was percieved by others, etc.

Klaive duels are not to be taken lightly. They are to the death. They are very serious. Pulling a klaive on someone is extremely serious business. And being known to have mastered the art of dueling with a klaive should make you equally feared.

You don't pull quarter in a klaive duel. You just kill them or die.

Specifically, without access to Klaviskar manuvers this change directly hobbles a 'defender' build who wishes to use their skills to defend themselves and others in non-deadly combats and challenges where using a Klaive would be seen as simply an intent to murder. Consider the fight between Rob's character and Maya. The instant silver arrived on the scene, killing Maya became a more acceptable option.

Yes. As soon as silver was drawn, I drew a klaive IC. That signified a duel to the death was taking place. Srs bidniz.

If your primary argument is that it's closer to what you interpret the book to intend, I would point to the year of Wilhelm NOT instantaneously lethally commiting to ONLY deadly Garou vs. Garou combats as a viable playtest as to why leaving these manuvers open to other swords is a good idea.

All the bullets in every gun bunnies guns shouldn't be silver - neither should all the blades used with any skill be.

I couldn't agree more. Klaivstar is not to be used lightly, frivolously, or at every corner. Just because combat has broken out and you have access to these tools doesn't mean you should use them.

Klaives are the nukes of the Garou world. Everyone can have one, but they should only be used when appropriate.

It seems as if below the cost (XP) for Klaviskar has been doubled (ish), yet above, the effectiveness is halved. This seems unfair, especially considering that the relative value of most manuvers each contain their own inherent drawbacks.

I haven't seen how these interact yet in great detail. My staff has expressed some concern at their relative power level. I will be watching these and making my own assessment.

Can the staff please provide an example of any other melee attack where strength is not applied to the damage? I don't see any other precedent for this particular clarification.

Parry.

It has been hypothesized that klaive dueling is more a dance then an actual combat. This flower slaps at that flower. Given the relative difference in soak for non-silver to silver, we currently believe that this does not hamper the lethality of this combat style. Should our theories be incorrect, we will make appropriate changes.

I have purchased the same levels of Klaviskar as Melee for my PC, having been told that I needed both for some reason. If this is somehow a change, do I need regular Melee for my character to be able use a knife for example? Or does Klaviskar count as 'advanced melee' for Garou, allowing me to get some points back from my base creation points that I spent on Melee?

If you wanna use klaviskar, you will need to be wielding a klaive. If you want to use a knife (or... for example... a silver knife not yet bonded with a spirit into a fetish), that takes melee. If you would like to change your character's dots, I would be willing to have that conversation, certainly.

This is a character-changing modification for me, not just a system one. I hope that the examples provided earlier help you understand why that is.

I understand and apologize for the strain this might cause.

Consider the reaction to Wilhelm defending against Sarah's character's attempted bitch-slap last game with a silver Klaive rather than a Fae one. That would have been a whole different scene.

I agree. Pulling silver is generally a bad idea. Using klaive dueling outside of a klaive duel is an equally bad idea.

From a logical story standpoint - not every Cub gets a Klaive - and training with lethal silver because you can't possibly do a Klaviskar manuver with a normal blade seems illogical too. Cubs lopping their own limbs off and killing themselves seems like sort of a goony training regimen. Even Jedi get the Force to keep them from becoming limbless younglings on day one of lightsaber practice.

My understanding of klaivskar is that it comes to you naturally after using a klaive for a year. Or at least the book says something to that effect. Therefore, logically, it isn't a function of training so much as a function of the mystical properties of klaives in general and their Garou wielders. It isn't likely that a cub would lop off their own limb; the klaive seems to want to be used properly. It does have a personality, after all.

- Klaivaskar is to become a primary ability and is to be purchased at primary costs (i.e. 3/2/4/6/8 exp for 1-5).

This places me into 'XP debt' for abilities my character has been using for a long time, the timing of which could be critical to my character's development of other abilities I had already banked XP for. How will the staff work with folks in this kind of situation

Staff will allow XP debt if that is what it wished for the Player in question. As a general rule, it seems like XP keeps on coming every week so this would be a temporary setback. On the other hand, much like taxes, if we change this to a secondary cost or some such down the road, you will be getting a decent refund. The maximum cost of this change is 12, less then a month for someone who collects as many noms as yourself.


Just to be clear:

These are currently SOFT changes. We are playtesting this. I, against the advisement of some of my Staff, feel that the best way to test something is in the hands of those most likely to break it: the players. I trust that the players will offer me a relatively appropriate view on how... the players... will use something in the future. XP and other things don't matter so much in the long run, as it has been argued to me in the past when I wished to do away with Lores or Secondaries in other spheres.

The purpose of this test is multifaceted.
1) We want to solidify this so that everyone is using the same system. There are no advantages if the rules remain the same for everyone.
2) I want Klaviskar to be used as the book details it. It is not detailed as a mass combat system. It is detailed as a duel between two garou likely intent on killing each other.
3) I want to return some flavor to this combat. Werewolf, much like vampire, doesn't offer very many ways to defend for someone else. It just isn't in system. We are trying to allow for this because logic implies it should work. What I really don't want to see is the watering down of a sacred art because it offers a slightly higher mechanical advantage to a single throw.

Anyway. This isn't targeting anyone. We might see the results of this test as largely negative and lift the restrictions. Please, no one lose their minds yet. I promise you, all will be well. I have a plan. This isn't a random dicking over of PCs.

Cheers!
-Rob.

[Wilhelm Opens-the-Way]

The long and the short of what I'm reading here is that the core combat style I've been using for this character, a swordsman with a Klaive dueling style that doesn't often actually use a Klaive is just dead wrong, shouldn't have been allowed in the first place and won't be allowed for the forseeable future - maybe in a 'soft' fashion.

I say it effects the core of my character and combat style, you say 'yeah duh' in a more or less polite way. Doesn't seem ok to me. Not sure what I'm going to do here, but this is a genuinely bad experience. I am not sure that Wilhelm is Wilhelm if he uses a Klaive to fight killing challenges and a regular sword with basic moves otherwise. It isn't him and it doesn't make sense, so if I am placed in a position where I don't feel I can play my character because my build is wrong.

It's after midnight so I'm going to sleep on it,but wow... This is more than just system to me. It means playing someone else. I havent been playing what you think Wilhelm should be like it sounds like. I like Wilhelm.

[Magic Rob]

Then keep playing Wilhelm.

I am absolutely certain that there is more to Wilhelm then Silver Shield. I am absolutely certain of it.

Klaive Dueling is a duel. With klaives. I am sorry if you have been using this for so long and find that it has sprouted into something core for your character. I am asking for some patience, as one guy that has made unpopular changes to another. Trust me here, guy. If these changes are genuinely unhealthy to game, I will continue this process until it evolves into something healthy.

In the meantime, I have RPed a long with Wilhelm. Please don't disrespect what you have built by saying something like your whole character changes if your maneuver set changes. That's silly and means that all you are good for is parrying in combat. It means that you don't see Wilhelm as more then a collection of combat stats. Since I see him as more then that, I have to believe that you do too.

I like Wilhelm a great deal and think he adds a whole lot to every game he is in. Never once have I seen him bantering about or being funny or judgmental and thought to myself 'Man, that elf sword + klaive dueling is awesome at talking!'. Not once.

Work with me here, Chris, and give me a chance to balance what I see as sloped. Trust me to keep this above board and equal.

-Rob.

[Wilhelm Opens-the-Way]

*shrug* Yeah, I know Wilhelm isn't *just* his weapon style. Bottom line is that I worked hard to find a niche fighting style unique to this character that fits his personality well and now that's off the table at least in the short term, which sucks. It was nice to have I guess something about werewolf that was tested and understood combat system wise that I could have a reasonable amount of confidence in. Now not so much. I wasn't trying to break anything or get special treatment, just figure out something that fit the character and was his 'edge' in the world of massive Agg auto-shanking soak-monkeys.

In the arms race that is this Werewolf game I feel like I lost to the STs, which stings like the Seahawks losing to the Refs against the Stealers at the superbowl. I'm not trying to give the staff a hard time, I just feel like I had this character for like a year and change, was playing him one way and now that's that. Saying 'Wilhelm isn't Silver Shield' is one thing, but his style of fighting is pretty tied to his claim to fame in the Garou nation, and now that's really not the case any more.

Guess I'll see how it goes. Maybe it won't be such a big deal, but I really do doubt it. It's the one thing my dude was good at and now it's nerfed. Never a good feeling, I'm sure you've been there at one point or another in life.

[Magic Rob]

Chris, we hear your concerns. But as it was run in the past, anyone with a spoon and two xp could do everything Wilhelm was doing. Never fear! My spoon shall silver wall us! Nevermind that it isn't silver, nor wall like...

The bottom line is this: as HST I have three jobs. 1) Ensure the greatest part of game is enjoyable to the greatest majority of players. 2) Ensure the rules are adjudicated fairly and consistently. And 3) Ensure the world is fairly represented.

This falls into all three. This is Rob protecting Wilhelms niche. I am really sorry you are feeling stung at this, but unless klaviskar is protected or made unique again, it just becomes another system. You of all people should be against that.

[Alden J. Blethen]

Could there be a way to allow for certain Klaive dueling manuvers to be transfered to the sword? I mean, a perry with a sword is the same as a perry with a klaive, and a thrust's a thrust. The reason for Klaviscar is to represent the knowledge of the rules of the duel and the meaning of the act, as well as the propper use of the klaive. It would be like giving a master of the longsword a katana. She he could use it, and maybe even be better than the average katana weilder, bet he'd be no samurai.

I guess what I'm saying is a thrust is a thrust, and a Prais de Argent is a Prais de Acier.

[Jason]

Hello all! Feedback had been asked for, so I wanted to put in my 2 cents for one part.
From the way I was reading this thread it looked like people were going to be retroacively charged the new costs for klaivaskar they already have. It has been a long held tradition in this sphere that if a new St wants to change the costs of anything, that it is done from that point on. Otherwise it can become very messy for players and St's alike.
Hope this helps,
Jason

[BLewis]

My personal opinion of things touches on a few of the different opinions here...

Regarding the Experience Cost difference, I feel that if Klaivaskar was able to be used outside of Klaive Dueling, the XP Cost should be bumped to Primary cost. Since it's a loophole in the system that isn't intended, in my opinion, for Klaivaskar to just be used in place of Melee at a lower experience point / freebie point cost.

Example: Yes, Archery is at a decreased cost off of Firearms or Melee (Depending on the System, they categorize them different..) because it cuts the use down. Archery is much different from Firearms, so at secondary cost you can't justify the use of any sort of gun. Splitting from Athletics, you can't use it for any sort of running, jumping, or climbing trees (And certainly no putting on make-up while you're up there).

Regarding the intent of Klaivaskar, I think it's important to look back to the actual words being used behind it. Klaive Dueling. Duels are between two individuals, excepting when something shady is happening. This would, in my opinion, mean that it isn't meant to create an impeneterable barrier between friendlies and foes because of system usage. It's meant to show that if you go on full defensive in a Klaive Duel using something like Silver Shield (I'll admit, I'm not too familiar with all of the in's, out's, and maneuvers of it), you're extremely difficult to hit. Unless you're popping in on a BSD or someone/thing else using a Klaive and go at them one-on-one in full ritual combat styles, I don't believe it should be applicable.

As for the "flavor" of why I think it should work this way, I believe that Klaivaskar is meant to show the relationship of the Klaive and its weilder against another Klaive/Weilder. As previously mentioned, Klaives have personalities, they have thoughts, dreams, wishes, etc. Klaivaskar, in my opinion, would be system representation of knowing how to combat another Klaive/Weilder combo in combat, using all of the different pieces that join to form a Klaive against an equally equipped foe.

To return to the Experience Cost (And Freebie Point, at character generation), if Klaivaskar is "open" to grand combats (IE: Not Duels), yes, it should go to Primary Cost (Yes, I touched on that already). If it's brought to a narrow-use like Klaive Dueling (in my opinion) intends, then it should remain at Secondary cost.

[Magic Rob]

This has been ruled as above, save the cost of this ability is now SECONDARY cost rather then primary. Staff believes that the limitations put into place on this is sufficient to warrant an XP reduction.