A Word on Bullying:

[Magic Rob]

I am disappointed. I think we need to have a heart to heart.

I've been sitting off in my own world for a while now, quietly minding my own business. But, I just can't ignore the many, many rumors flying about from Vampire lately. If even a third of what I have heard is true, there have been some terrible and wicked things a foot.

I am speak primarily of bullying. Specifically, when players bully Staff. I know pretty much everyone on Staff, and while we haven't always seen eye to eye, I generally respect the job they do.

--Removed-- (Galen)

Normally I would never be so tacky as to speak in the direct and name names. Normally, I try to restrict myself to speaking abstractly and anecdotal. This time, however, there will be none of that nonsense.

--Removed as it concerns Confidential Information-- (Galen)

This is the world of darkness. Sometimes you win, sometimes you go home in a bag. What needs to happen here is a firm 'no' from Staff. And you, the players, need to empower Staff to make that call. You as a playerbase need to tell these guys that shady abusive OOC tactics will not have a place here. You need to rise up. You need to stand behind your Staff and shout that your STs will not be bullied. They are YOUR STs. You voted them in. They tell you stories. They do this as a gesture of love regardless of how many players like the above cry and bitch to them and tell them they are dumb. They do this without compensation. They take time out of their week to talk about game. They take time out of their day to answer emails. And every week they gather up and pull on an ST hat and collectively put their own happiness aside to ensure the greater joy of the community.

Your staff is sacred and they should never be violated.

I know this lesson well as not too long ago, I was one of the bitch players that demanded his way in a cruel fashion. And I was wrong. I threw tantrums that I felt were justified and attacked people that I considered weak and rampaged around like a fool. And I was wrong.

Having stood on Staff for over a year and being the target for some truly unkind hate, I can say without a doubt that unless you, as a group, stand up and say that your Staff won't tolerate this shift nonsense, everyone will lose.

This is an issue near to my heart and I felt it necessary to take a minute and inform the greater player-base of the truly shameful bullying going on behind closed doors. Don't let those you love come to harm because others feel they deserve it. I urge you all to do the right thing.

-Rob.

[Webmonkey]

Non-emotional informational: Moved because this is a rant. That act has no bearing on my personal opinion of the views expressed within it, etc. Just doing my job.

[Ross]

Rob,

As a PA directly involved in/around the situation you are citing, I can verify that you are woefully ignorant of the facts, and the accusations you have made are decidedly without merit.

If anyone has any questions deriving from Rob's post, please contact one of the Vampire PAs or Vampire staff members.

Thank you,

Ross
Vampire PA

[BLewis]

Quite honestly, I've prided myself over the years on being very informed. In that vein, I have seen in many of the direct words of those involved in the above post that it is valid and correct. And, no offense intended towards Ross (Who has been one of the continually forthright and honest PAs of Vampire), he wasn't involved in the exchange of words witnessed. Perhaps the players that have involved him should be more honest to their PA, hmm?

[Webmonkey]

There has been a complaint about this post. I referred the individual to an HST for Charter enforcement as I don't censor posts.

[BLewis]

Word is that the characters were requested back to kill Luthias, who killed Saga, a pretty flagrant disregard of a previous rule about coming back to kill who killed you. That much, at least, is just rumor thus far. But wouldn't it be suspicious if something happened there..

[Webmonkey]

If an HST confirms this initial post is untrue they may lock the post without my say-so as they are admins.

[BLewis]

I'm curious, what recourse is there if they say that it's untrue, then proves to be true later?

[Webmonkey]

Complaints are handled via the methods mentioned in the Charter and enforced by the body of the elected HSTs. Please refer to the charter here: vampst.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=OOC&action=display&thread=13498

[Galen]

Now enough is enough.

First off, Rob, I apologize for editing your post. I appreciate the message you are trying to convey but naming names and including details of an email that by all rights should have never fallen into your hands is unacceptable. I do not know how you got this information but I am working to discover such.

Secondly, as far as the contents of that email are concerned they are a private matter between staff, PAs, and the players involved. They are not for dispensation among the player base as a whole.

Thirdly, the details of such email have been greatly misconstrued, without bothering to ask for clarification from staff or the individuals involved before being posted here. Here are the details.

-- Some calls were made in a few scenes by staff as a whole that I agree were incorrect. For that, we have apologized and are attempting to right some wrongs.

-- Some out of character conversations between myself and these players concerning righting these wrongs in the past, much to my shame, had been forgotten and not followed through with in a timely manner causing addition frustration on the parts of the players.

-- As for the recompense for such actions the items aforementioned (previous to my edits) were simply ideas that had been bantered back and forth between a few select individuals. The emails contents were requested by myself from the player because god knows my memory is shit right now.

-- Again, the aforementioned items are simply up for discussion among staff. That does not mean they will be getting everything listed there.

If there are any further concerns or discussion regarding those specific terms please feel free to contact either staff or a PA.

If you wish to continue to discuss the finer points of not bullying staff, feel free to continue to debate here though I will request that sensitive information be kept free from the boards and promptly deleted if you are not an intended recipient of such.

Thank you all.

-Galen, HST of Vampire

[BLewis]

So... Sensitive is the term for accurate and likely, then? Recompense is one thing, but the type of thing "suggested" (Despite it being repeatedly said to be moved ahead) seems to be rather ludicrous and out of the scope of recompense (Especially for at least the individuals on a staff that had no intention of keeping things fair or recompensing those they've wronged when they were out to kill other characters) for a staff that's already stepping down very shortly.

[Magic Rob]

Others have edited the above post so that it no longer reflects my original intent or expression. It is a very unfortunate situation when the truth must be censored to protect the unworthy.

However, I still have the original missive in its entirety. Should you wish to read it or like to combat censorship by reading such 'inflammatory content', please send me an email.

knolan.4035 AT gmail.com

-Rob.

[Webmonkey]

Mostly informational, however admittedly there is some opinion based solely on the fact I'm a third party bystander. I do not seek to sway any group in a particular direction, only to be informative. Any opinions stated are just that.

Fact: If there is a complaint about a storyteller not meeting their commitments the procedure for levying that complaint is listed in the charter - it involves a petition from a majority of the players in that sphere signed by at least one PA. Please review the Charter for specifics.

Opinion: It seems likely to me that since Galen has stated his intention to step down soon that route is unlikely to gain traction in such a way or speed as to be relevant, therefore it might be prudent for him to hold off on promises of special perks or compensation to players and allow the incoming staff to manage the situation as they might be likely to come at the issue with a fresh perspective. This approach would require patience on the part of the players involved.

Fact: ...But it's his call ultimately unless a petition is formed per the Charter guidelines prior to him stepping down.

Opinion: As these complaints were presented by players not in Galen's sphere, a petition seems unlikely to gain traction in a timely matter unless players in the Vampire sphere take action swiftly themselves. If there are players in the sphere that wish to bring these kinds of concerns to a public forum, the result might be seen as more reasonable. Since Galen has redacted the specifics of these suggested perks as sensitive, it is unlikely that the Vampire sphere's players would be able to make an informed decision about whether those perks constitute some kind of unfairness or not. It might behoove the PAs of the Vampire sphere to discuss these issues and decide on a course of action. Vampire PAs seeking advice from other Sphere HSTs might also be in order, but either way a quorum of PA's should probably be involved.

Fact: At this time however the HST has spoken and is fully within his rights to manage the sphere he was elected to as he sees fit until the transition to a new staff is complete.

[Thornstar]

I have to say, Rob, that everything constructive in this post I totally agree with. Staff does need to be treated with respect for the job they do for us. I'm a big fan of the people who show up every week and put their issues aside to run a game for other people.

I encourage everyone to take Rob's advice about being respectful with staff. His assessment of what running this thing is like is pretty accurate for everyone else I've talked to that's done it. But that's common knowledge, and not just a rumor.

I agree that people need to support their staff. No one should allow the kind of abuse that staff gets regularly from players. Because no one "deserves" to be publically shamed and berated for trying to do things right, even if they don't, in the end.

It's called misunderstanding. And it's exactly what's been happening here. You're trying to do what you think is right. So, with as little rhetoric and grandstanding as I can manage, here's what I have to say back to you on the topic of bullying and respecting the sanctity and decisions of a staff.

As you said, they have the right to make a call and stand by it. And they have. And you're telling people that they need to get riled up and tell the staff that the decision they've made is wrong, which is contradictory to... well, what you said about making sure the player base stands up FOR the staff and supports the decisions they've made.

Jul 3, 2012 20:15:58 GMT -8 Magic Rob said:

I know this lesson well as not too long ago, I was one of the bitch players that demanded his way in a cruel fashion. And I was wrong. I threw tantrums that I felt were justified and attacked people that I considered weak and rampaged around like a fool. And I was wrong.

So what are you doing here? Demanding your way in a cruel fashion. Throwing a tantrum. Being wrong.

When this came up here on the boards, I tried to get a hold of you, but it appears that previous to this, you blocked me, so civilized discourse was obviously not your intent. We havent talked in years, it's not like you know me anymore. You should probably just assume that what you do know about me is wrong, much like I'm finding out about you.

You've claimed that you understand the dynamic between players and staff, and yet you've taken things out of their hands so that you could throw a fit against me with Blewis, since the two of you seem to need to do that either every once in a while or whenever I express an opinion that you don't like.

Then out comes something like this.

Or like this:
www.vampst.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Rant&action=display&thread=13891


Basically, I must just look too happy for your estimation of what i deserve to be. Which, on it's own, is fine. I like being happy, and your opinion of me doesn't really matter, except to you.

But this is ridiculous. You're not protecting anyone from me. You're not providing a venue for discussion on how the game community can benefit from some change. You're just trying to shame me for something you don't understand the cause of.

So, for a little information on the situation you've inserted yourself into:

Yeah, I'm sad Saga died. This really sucks, in my opinion, because even playing a Gangrel with uber-nasty-claw-stuffs, Toni's just there to roleplay and have fun, and didn't actually do any of the stuff IC that she's being blamed for IC. Which is not what we complained about.

Yeah, I talked to Galen about how to resolve a situation without causing a ton of OOC Drama, and ways to wrap up a character that for several reasons I was not having fun playing. We didn't ask for good standing where it wasn't deserved; I offered my character up as an antagonist NPC, if they wanted to use it, or they could just leave him crying in an alley in LA, if they wanted. Also not what we complained about.

Yeah, there was a list of cookies. Galen SPECIFICALLY asked us to send in an email with ALL of those things you've now made public so that he could discuss them with his staff, since he offered recompense for a series of things that happened OOC. So, at 430 in the morning, I put down a list of everything I could stream-of-consciousness think of that was relevant, and tossed it over the wall for discussion by the people who actually get to make the decision.

None of this was about anything we or anyone else did in character, or whether we won or lost. We walked away from the characters because it was not worth creating a more chaotic situation IC and a more stressful one OOC over trying to fix mistakes in continuity of events. We were simply the least invasive part of the equation to remove.

So we volunteered.

Thus, the discussion.

Then, it seems, someone who is on the staff, or perhaps otherwise gained access to their email conversation from it being left on a screen or something, decided to start talking about the end of a story without having any idea what the beginning or middle were, and got either:
Truly offended that something happened that they disagreed with, but have no stake in
or
The idea that they could maliciously attack someone they don't like in perhaps the easiest of ways.

Really, you guys pulling specific words out of a larger message and spouting them at people as your truth is irresponsible, if you mean any of what you're saying about respecting staff. They have now told you that, no, there is no bullying going on, and no, you do not have the complete facts. So, if you mean it when you say "Your staff is sacred and they should never be violated" then it looks like you're done here, because they are, and they aren't being, by their own admission.

So if you want to talk out of both sides of your mouth, and accuse me of bullying the staff, while actually bullying the staff (and me, and Toni, and some other fine people that haven't done a single thing wrong, here, too) yourself, that's your call.

If you want to claim that you understand the issue due to having experience with people saying truly hurtful things about you, and then sit there and slander the sliver of a good name I have left after all the mistakes I've made, then that's your call, too.

So Rob, Blewis, I'm not going to just sit here and take it from you when you haven't got any good goddamn reason to dish it.

If you guys really have that big a problem with me, I'm happy to talk to you about it. I'm sure there are lots of apologies I owe you for lots of things. Hell, that goes for anyone else, as well. But that's between me and you, just like this stuff is between, well, not you and other not you.


As the last thing I have to say about this whole debacle, you initially quoted out a bunch of things from an email, but conveniently left out, well, all the important stuff. Like how it is in no way about bullying. Like how it is a simple communication of things to help the staff easily go point-by-point and approve or deny things. Like how it starts off with:

"Good Morning,
As promised, I am sending an email to you guys about the agreed upon resolution to the situation our characters ended up in."
and ends with:
"Ok. Let's discuss. Like I said before, I'm not speaking for [X] and [Y] and [Z], but I want to make sure we all get off to a good, communicative start with this process and I'd really like to get this all worked out early in the week if possible. That way we can come up with some plans for Saturday, maybe buy some costuming stuff, and get to work on spending XP and honestly just generally relax about game.
Thank you,
--Aaron"

But I understand why. I don't sound so mean and pushy when it's framed in context.

[Valerie]

From our fine charter:

7.Morality Clause- STs should conduct themselves as befits the best example of their player base. However, STs are entitled to anything a base player is, including voting in proceedings or representing their own INDIVIDUAL opinions.

Please now consider this clause invoked; I am aware of my position as a Storyteller but these opinions are my own.

I will also not speak to the authencity of any communications which any party here quotes, references, makes eyes at or otherwise as I am not in receipt of any of these communications, nor have I seen them.

However, I do take issue with a part of this argument. Statements in the above post about how Aaron tried to contact Rob are untrue.

I can understand you wanting to go at this person-to-person without involving an intermediary, but people in your house (including you) DO know how to get a hold of people in my house (including Rob) if you really want to. You have. Toni has successfully contacted members of my household for the express purpose of asking favors of me during times where mutual friends were in great need. Getting a hold of someone when you all have smartphones is not rocket science, especially since from what I've seen, you and Rob and Toni are all friends on Facebook, where you can message people or get their phone numbers. I also don't believe it's physically possible to block someone on Gmail.

Also, it surprises me to say it surprises you that people have such a big problem with you. People in this community have gone out of their way to help you when you needed it and have nothing to show for it but the promise of an apology that never comes and change they can't see.

Framing in context is fine, but in line with that same argument, don't say someone won't talk to you when you don't try and talk to them.

EDITED: Orange valkyrie needs coffee grammar badly.

[Thornstar]

Did I exhaust all options? No.
Did I give it a shot? Yep.
Was I interested in playing a telephone game through other people to contact someone hauling a bunch of shit out onto a public forum? No.
Did I feel it was fair of me to drag uninvolved mutual friends of ours into the middle of this? No.

So yeah. There's that.

Since you pointed it out, Rob threw this up here without bothering to talk to any of us, which is so simple with smartphones and facebooks and such. And, yesterday, was an option.

[The Mouth]

A pox on all your houses? To paraphrase.

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

ok gang please stop all of this.

The thread went from "the staff is being bullied" to the HST saying"not being bullied- btw leaking staff emails is BAD" to "staff sucks" and yet the main theme of it it has become another personal attack on Aaron.

As the one person most involved with all your grievances- will you please please just let it go?
We have both worked really hard to stay away and leave you all alone.

He has apologized for being a crappy ST already- very publicly, so Im going to assume this is all about personal stuff now. And it makes me sad.

Look, Im sorry you are all hurt and offended but please stop.You have publicly abused him more than you have any other ST or player now and also attempted to (and in a very different way than you intended-did) hurt me personally in the process of getting back at him privately.

I understand he is the new "most hated person at game" or whatever but let it go please? You are taking so many thing out of context from one stupid email and have not seen the hours of conversations, and the frustrations at a staff that has been so passive-aggressive and very back-stabby to each other to the detriment of the players and the world our characters exisit in while the HST is going through difficult personal stuff to. Please let him and his staff handle this.

This makes me hurt- alot. Im done being mad. I was all mad and ragey in the past over this crap and Im done. Now I just hurt. And I am so tired of hurting. I know a few of you enjoy that whole "other peoples suffering" thing still so I'll end this by letting you all know that I am in tears over all this drama, like really currently sitting here crying because of this crap.

Please? Just leave it alone?

[The Mouth]

Toni -

From the other side of a recent CvC interaction of you guys; sure. We didn't target yall because we 'hated you'. We did so because our IC perception was a matter of political survival. In Vampire terms that includes physical survival and we took to the only tools we had at the time to resolve that:

Luthias/Darrin.

At the time I didn't quite understand what a can of worms that was going to open OOC'ly; I have tried to not make it my business what the history of each clique is all about.

As a result of this Galen's AST's made a collection of bad calls; something I might note is par-fucking-course for every staff when it comes to CvC or PVP. Not because in CvC there has to be a loser or at the least one party getting ahead of the other, but most often because the staff running the scene was rushed and players haaaaaate it when the staff member says 'Lemme check the book' and then spends 20 minutes tracking it down.

Seriously, staffs in the future, enforce that 'if it ain't in main, haul the text with you' rule. Speeds things way up.

I object to ANY cookie being given out to any player who loses a character. You played, you lost, mostly wasn't your fault, but nearly every other person I know of who got to take a bite of that shit sandwich had to swallow it with no cookie afterwards.

But... It isn't my call. It isn't Rob's call. And it certainly isn't okay for any Staff member to put it out there - And Rob, fie on you. You knew better. Get that you had great intentions, or something of that nature but with the parties involved I question your ability to either forcast results or that you were seeking something like this confrontation.

With the same people. Again.

B-Lewis, Aaron, Rob, Toni, et al... Have you guys not read your previous posts laid out in all eternity or so long as the hosting fees are paid? Have you not seen the same arguments evolve, time and time again? Are you doomed to repeat the same patterns?

You all have dragged your conflicts onto the boards and into game. By far you are not the only ones to have done so, but lately you have been the loudest.

So. Net result of all this: A staff member is likely to be fired/have a charter thrown at them and we all know how you all feel about each other or that you are feeling attacked. Again.

Cool.

Core issues: Was Galen being bullied? He says no. He is an adult. He can make that call on his own. Did others perceive Galen being bullied or people being shitty wretched to him? Maybe. We have PA's for that.

Were others shitty wretched at each other? Probably. We have PA's for that too.

Did a staff member air some business they should not have? Looks that way. We have a Staff and PA's for that.

Are the PA's involved in any of this? Hope to Christ yes; but we shouldn't find out here. Confidentiality and all.

That concludes my rant.

- Ben

[BLewis]

Jul 4, 2012 12:45:50 GMT -8 The Mouth said:

B-Lewis, Aaron, Rob, Toni, et al... Have you guys not read your previous posts laid out in all eternity or so long as the hosting fees are paid? Have you not seen the same arguments evolve, time and time again? Are you doomed to repeat the same patterns?

Actually, I'm quite acutely aware of the same issue(s) being brought up over and over. Its almost like someone keeps going about the same shady, underhanded, shitting-on-other-players activities without change. Perhaps, if this someone stopped bullying storytellers into getting their way, these sorts of "discussions" wouldn't happen? There was a large stint of time when nothing like this occurred. Coincidentally, it was following someone's time on staff when they didn't come to game (Which, despite "assurances" to the contrary, I can only surmise was to dodge the fresh-wound-memory of ignoring rules and killing characters that this person didn't like (A subject that came up repeatedly in staff meetings for each term)).