How to pay the Rent. Discussion.

[Katie Hester]

I'm really digging the whole nerds on mount doom thing. A werewolf, vampire, fae, and a mage walk up a mountain.... Does it sound like a bad joke waiting to happen to anyone else? *grin*

[AST Tai]

I worry about the mandatory $2 a night thing, some people really can't afford this every week. God forbid you forget your wallet, do you not get to play? I like option 4 myself.

[Sethron]

Discounting the people who cannot afford this mandatory fee is silly.

I know for a fact when the fundraiser was happening and 1 dollar would have gotten them 268xp, there were at least 5-10 people who could not donate money.. Others donated for some of them, but some of them were not donated for. This is 1/8-1/16 of the group.

I appreciate that it is not a majority that will have this problem, but you will have people who do.. and like Tai says, when you forget your money, will you be reduced to begging at the front door to come inside?

It's not that there's not a possibility that some people can budget money for game; but then this game adds itself to the group of frivolous purchases someone who is barely making rent has to consider having guilt over paying.

In the same way that going out to eat for 10 bucks means nothing, you don't do it when you are having a hard time making ends meet. You cut the stuff that isn't required--this game is in the realm of things that those who are having a hard time making ends meet can't justify.

Let's look at a hypothetical

I /can/ budget 15 bucks a month for World of Warcraft.

I owe 4500 dollars on a credit card. Is that really wise right now, or should I just stop doing that? I love it, and it makes me happy, but it is an unnecessary expense..

... Guess my adult sensibilities say I should quit.

I'm just saying don't argue that these people don't exist. They do. And they are a valid portion of our community.

Feel free to say they don't deserve to be here if that is how you feel, but don't say they don't exist.

[user/874]

I am seriously and deeply opposed to selling XP.

XP in the vampire specifically is already horrifically and terribly bloated. We do NOT need to add more sources.

Vote for option 2.

If you can't afford $2 a week, come see me. We can work out a sponsorship. I have money and no time. What I would like to have time for is donating volunteer time. If you a willing to donate a single hour of volunteer time each week to the Boys and Girls club (and bring me documented proof of time spent) I will happily pay for your Vampire time. This offer is open for up to 6 people a month.

With the slot available at the donation table, this allows in the range of 20 people to show up and play vampire free every month.

Win-Win-Win. You get to play Vampire. The Boys and Girls club get volunteer time. We all get to stay inside and play.

[AST Tai]

Todd, I don't want to be rude but I don't think that's fair to other spheres. I love that your willing to help just trying to be as fair as possible.

[user/874]

Nov 13, 2013 21:50:59 GMT -8 AST Tai said:

Todd, I don't want to be rude but I don't think that's fair to other spheres. I love that your willing to help just trying to be as fair as possible.

Poor choice of words. Strike Vampire and substitute ECC. I just tend to conflate the two in my own head and say "vampire" when I mean ECC.

[Thornstar]

Well, I've gone on record many times saying that I'd rather play in the cold outside at the UW.

With these options up for vote, and knowing full well that so many people want to stay at the BGC in the cold months, I think that the $2 requirement across the board is both acceptable and not unduly burdensome to any of us.

The last I thought I heard, this was just a vampire decision, since we were told at announcements that basically no donations were coming in from the other games.

I missed the part where it became a ECC-wide vote, but I guess that's fine. I'd like to see everyone on the same page when it comes to the way we administer our games, here.

We've had a lot of discussion in the last couple months, specifically, about how to better our community. I think that if we go through with this and make sure we're providing a nice, warm place for all of us to play together, and we all know that we're each contributing the same little bit, that accomplishes that goal the best out of these options.

That's just my opinion, though. I'm sure the vote will determine what ECC as a whole thinks is best.

[Sarah]

IT's really easy to do that I do it a lot with Werewolf XD.

[AST Tai]

I would still like clarification though, IF we vote it in what IS the ruling on something like forgetting your wallet or HONESTLY not being able to afford $2 sometimes? Will we be left at the door? As it is begging at the table is hard, forcing people to pay you is going to make it way more stressful.

[Oberon Gault]

Frankly, it's likely to be an unpopular thing to point out, but of the people who claim they can't afford $2/week, how many of these people go between/during games and buy energy drinks (Minimum ~$2.18), candy (minimum ~$1.08), etc from the gas station? How many go to one of the several sit-down restaurants before game or between games and spend a minimum of $10 a week?

To put it bluntly, not being able to afford $8 a month is garbage.

I'm in favor of a mandatory weekly (Or covered monthly) fee to play to keep us inside if donations don't increase. I'm *not* in favor of buying XP by excessive donations.

My previous suggestion to NOtR persons was to give the upstairs floor to whichever game averages the most per person. That eliminates the mandatory portion and removes the necessity of babysitting who donated and who didn't. But, apparently that wasn't seen as a viable approach, because mandatory fees rather than averages of willing donations was more acceptable.

Edit: And to echo other suggestions, yes, having a stay at the table in lieu of payment would seem viable. We're having problems getting people to stay at the table, so if you "can't afford" $2, but can afford that energy drink, sit at the table for a mandatory amount of time instead. While you eat your food from the restaurant next door.

[Abby/Blood Offerings]

Aaron -

Last year, it was mostly Werewolf and Changeling players who donated time away from our games to sit at the table. There are notable exceptions, but we really were the bulk of it. And really, you want to make this a mandatory thing for all of the game without consulting us? That's ridiculous, and not anywhere near what this game has stood for in the 13 years I have been playing. Honestly, that you would even think along those terms pisses me off.

Everyone -

Do I want to sell XP? Not really. Is it a way to get people to donate? Let me look at the blanket drives, and the amount of XP I see in some characters because of them, and that tells me it will work. It will work WONDERS.

But it's not fair to those who can't afford even the $2 a week. I get that. But making it mandatory....I don't know. I'm going to spend a lot of time thinking on this one before I make up my mind.

And on a completely separate topic, I am in the building at the early times, and have my phone set up to take card for the NOTR. I may not be at the table, but you can hunt me down and I am TOTALLY WILLING to take time out of a scene to run your card and take your money.

[Thornstar]

Nov 13, 2013 22:40:32 GMT -8 Abby/Blood Offerings said:

Aaron -

... And really, you want to make this a mandatory thing for all of the game without consulting us? That's ridiculous, and not anywhere near what this game has stood for in the 13 years I have been playing. Honestly, that you would even think along those terms pisses me off.

Elspeth,

Actually, I was under the impression that this was a discussion among the vampire players, and that only we were voting, and that it was only a decision that we were making for the vampire sphere. That is my understanding of the initial explanation given us. Again: Not that Vampire made the rules for ECC, just that Vampire was talking about a thing Vampire was going to do.

Relax. It's cool. Just a misunderstanding of the situation on my part, I guess, and I'm reasonably certain you drastically misinterpreted what I said.

[Abby/Blood Offerings]

Nov 13, 2013 22:52:35 GMT -8 Thornstar said:

Nov 13, 2013 22:40:32 GMT -8 Abby/Blood Offerings said:

Aaron -

... And really, you want to make this a mandatory thing for all of the game without consulting us? That's ridiculous, and not anywhere near what this game has stood for in the 13 years I have been playing. Honestly, that you would even think along those terms pisses me off.

Elspeth,

Actually, I was under the impression that this was a discussion among the vampire players, and that only we were voting, and that it was only a decision that we were making for the vampire sphere. That is my understanding of the initial explanation given us. Again: Not that Vampire made the rules for ECC, just that Vampire was talking about a thing Vampire was going to do.

Relax. It's cool. Just a misunderstanding of the situation on my part, I guess, and I'm reasonably certain you drastically misinterpreted what I said.

Okay, that makes more sense. And I redirect my anger away from you, as it lightens to it being something less. I still don't think it would be fair for a single sphere to have to bear the brunt, but as you do have the biggest player base, it makes sense that you do.

Thank you for understanding that my flare of RAGE was over misunderstanding your words. Text is hard to read.

[Abby/Blood Offerings]

I just realized something that is confusing me.

Do we not have Jan-Feb *now* or is it that if donations continue as they are now, that we will not be able to make rent for those months?

I'm really confused.

[AST Tai]

Brad- I can afford food between games sometimes, I bring up this concern for others who I have NEVER or extremely rarely seen get things from local places. I have bought dinner or a soda or paid for someone in the past. I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who's saying they can't afford it is lying. Some people live off food stamps too, they bring food from home and might occasionally buy a soda with their stamps, which I believe they can do at the gas station. I would like to have a solution for these people, not all of them are available to sit at the table for multiple reasons.

[Sarah]

Elspeth- From what I understand from Kaine if donations continue this way we will be out in Jan-Feb.

[Abby/Blood Offerings]

Sarah - Thank you, but I would appreciate someone from the NOTR answering this question. Just to be clear.

[Victor Vaughn]

I think the biggest point of contention here isn't that we don't want to exclude anyone from game, but we need to give some sort of impetus to those that can easily afford to pay dues to actually do so. We don't want to make it so someone can't play, but for every person out there that remembers they should pay but can't, there are ten that can pay but "forget".

[user/874]

I sincerely and truly dis-believe that more than 20% of our community is utterly unable to pay $8 a month. We have roughly 100 folks who show up to various games each Saturday. There are something like 16 slots available for people to work the table and collect money, which pays your dues for the month. I have personally offered to cover up to 6 if they are willing to donate 4 hours of volunteer time to the Boys and Girls club each month.

That is 22 people playing for free. If we need to cover more people than that, I am sure there are some more generous folks besides me who would be willing to match my offer, as long as the Boys and Girls club is getting volunteers.

Seriously though, put this in perspective. If you are a smoker, which I am, to make up $8 a month, you need to smoke one less cigarette a day. One a day. That will save you enough money in a month to cover you AND give you money to donate to get your friend in. That how small of a sum we are talking here. I am very skeptical of the fact that 20% of our people can't make up $8 in a month for 16 full hours of entertainment. I defy you to find any kind of entertainment that costs less than $.50 an hour.

Plus, there are options, some of which I outlined above.

Options that do not default to selling XP. That is the worst of all possible endings. Please ECC, I beg of you, do not go down the road of selling XP in any form.

[Webmonkey]

Just a few numbers to consider when thinking about how best to take care of this venue for entertainment resource:

Playing a typical monthly-subscription MMORPG costs around $200 per year, including the cost of the game and expansions. If you played World of Warcraft for 5 years, you probably paid pretty much exactly $1,000 to Blizzard. But that is the easiest case of cost calculation, and it only represents the direct costs. Saying how much a Free2Play game costs is much more difficult, because the cost is variable, depending of what exactly you want to get out of the game. The more you pay, the more you get, obviously. Different Free2Play games have different payment options and plans, and figuring out how much you'll end up paying is about as difficult as figuring out your mobile phone payment plan. With iron discipline you can play for absolutely free, but if you don't watch yourself you might easily spend more for a "free" game than for a subscription game.

And then there are the indirect costs. For MMORPG gamers, how much did you pay over the last 5 years for computers and your internet connection? Probably more than the $1,000 I mentioned for 5 years of playing WoW. In most places the internet connection alone already costs more than the $15 per month of a monthly subscription MMORPG. But then of course playing a MMORPG is probably not the only thing you need your computer and internet connection for, and your monthly payment for the internet might be a "triple play" plan including telephone and digital TV. MMORPGs also usually don't require a lot of data transfer, so you don't really need high-speed internet to play a MMORPG, but it sure comes in handy on patch day. So many people chose not to count the cost of their computer and internet connection as "MMORPG cost". I think the 'transportation costs' involved in getting to and from LARP are roughly analogous to paying for an internet connection to jump into a video game world and play with friends. Yep, you can bring your laptop over and use someone else's Internet if you wish (carpool) or even go play using city sponsored Wi-Fi (at the library or other public network) though each option has its drawbacks as well.

Costs for an MMORPG can change if a new game *requires* you to buy a new computer. The announced system requirements for Final Fantasy XIV for example are definitively on the high side, requiring at least an i7 CPU, 4 GB of memory (which, if completely true would mean you can't run FFXIV on a 32-bit operating system, because you need a 64-bit operating system to access more than 3 GB of memory), and a GeForce 460 GTX or better. The new computer you could have bought a year-and-a-half ago barely fulfills these requirements, so it'll probably require the next computer you'll probably buy next year before you can play FFXIV in high resolution. This could be like getting a new costume piece or prop for a character, replacing an old core book with a shiny new V20 one, or whatever other 'upgrades' you might think about for your gaming experience that isn't provided for you, a sleek long jacket, a cane, corset or hat, whether 2nd hand or not, a packet of notecards, a thing of mechanical pencils, etc... There are other costs is the point.

Most MMORPG players don't mind paying those $200 per year for a good game, but might balk at spending an additional $1,000+ for a computer to run it, or at least several hundred dollars for upgrading their existing one. So not only will the overall price tag prevent some potential customers from actually buying the game, even worse, customer who *do* buy the game give most of their money to the computer shop and hardware companies, and not to the game developer. At least with LARP costs the money you spend usually either goes directly to your personal enjoyment or very basic rent, warmth, toilets, etc.

In summary, how much playing a MMORPG costs and how much LARPing as a pastime costs is similar to the question of how much a car costs, in that there isn't really one true answer. You can pay between nothing at all (like with an mmo if you consider your computer and internet being "free" or if you've passed on all of the rent costs to your friends and act like rent is "free" for the LARP) to hundreds or even thousands of dollars, if you attribute all the indirect costs to the various kinds of games.

If you assume while LARPing we spend 6 months indoors, times 4 weeks per month, times $2 per week, that's a grand total of $48 per year you're being asked to spend to play. That's less than a single console game (Which averages around $50-60), and will most often never change. In other words, a static console game won't generally get much new content for free if ever, and DLCs tend to cost, where as a LARP is never the same game twice. There are always new characters and new situations, new concepts, new builds and new stories. Nothing is ever truly the same.

Essentially what the ask is for the per hour at-game entertainment value is $0.50. Fifty cents per hour to LARP.

So basically I ask myself, is fifty cents an hour worth the entertainment value game brings to me? That is assuming I only derive fun from the game for the precise four hour period I play in it, and never have any fun outside of that time. (Some games only run 3hrs per night, so that's about 67 cents an hour. )

But yeah, I have way more fun in an hour of LARPing than I can on any two quarters can buy at an arcade, for sure. Hell yes that's good entertainment value for my gaming dollar.

When I was flush, each year we returned to the B&GC I'd pay my $48 the first game of the year, and then Jane would generally do the same, then we'd double it, assuring that two other random people were cared for. We'd usually just round up to $50 and hand over $200. Then we'd go the rest of the year knowing that we did our part and then some and never feed the pig again.

If there was an auction item we thought was cool or a raffle we might put in a couple of bucks there too for a chance to win something, and I tended to buy coffees at the snack bar once a week, because caffeine.

Currently I'm out of work, so I can't afford to do that right now, but when I'm gainfully employed and caught up, I plan to do it again. I know that right now I'm relying a bit on the kindness of others to get by, but before the 6 months is out I'm sure I'll have $48 to hand over. I don't feel too bad about that either, considering the tradition of 'doubling' my 'personal' yearly rent for the past 5 years.

I guess what I want to say is that if you didn't pay a dime over that time and we still had a place to play, then I did that, or helped do that, but now I can't, so if you're able, I'd appreciate the help in return if it's possible, because my ass is currently broke. I paid extra because I like role-playing with you guys and I didn't want people to be left out, and I thought the bare minimum wasn't enough to express how much I truly love these games and this community.

I didn't post this to make anyone feel bad or guilty or anything, just to share my thought process on what I think the worth of my favorite hobby is, and that's simply this: Way more than two bucks a game.