One Problem Statement: Too much magic is bad for our game.

[Kevin K]

What's The Big Problem?
In Rhetoric, Aristotle suggests that:

If you wish to persuade someone to do any thing, you must first persuade them that there is a problem to be solved or an improvement to be made.

We've talked about some problems of power levels, and I keep hearing the question being, "Why is this a bad thing? I'm having a lot of fun!" So let's SET ASIDE THE SOLUTION (like resets, retirements, etc) and focus on defining the problems we're trying to solve.

(Also, since brevity is a sign of wisdom -- if you hate reading walls of text just read the stuff in big letters.)

I think there are a few potential problems to be considered, let's start with this statement:

Non-magical character concepts are devalued by the current level of magic in our game.

Clarifications:
"Level" refers to both strength (kinds of paths & rituals) and breadth (number of characters with access)..

This statement leads only to reduction in magic strength and availability, not its elimination. Please avoid scarecrow arguments around settings with no magic at all.

Assumptions:

First Assumption: Magic provides access to effects or information that have major benefits above and beyond regular disciplines.

A1 Example 1: After technology, Dominate, Auspex, and Animalism have exhausted all possible witnesses, spirits of the umbra, ghosts, and the spirits of the materials themselves are still available for interrogation.
A1 Example 2: The level 3 Framing ritual (anarch cookbook) is a perfect mask at 5 successes on an appearance+subterfuge diff 8 roll, ignoring all powers of Auspex, technology, and affecting every observer.
A1 Example 3: Path of Blood 3's ability to raise generation allows the user to protect themselves from Dominate entirely while under its effects.


Second Assumption: Many magic effects can only be countered by other magic (if at all), making magic the best tool in most plans.

A2 Example 1 : If I travel the city by foot or car, influences, static tests and certain discipline usages can track me. If I walk into the shadowlands, abyss, or any other magic means of travel, only magic will be helpful.

A2 Example 2: If I wish to attack someone in their haven, I must assault each security system to gain entrance. Or I cast a ritual and walk incorporeally through everything. Or enter their haven from the shadowlands. The only prevention for this is another ritual.


Third Assumption: The outcome of most of 'major situations' is improved for magic-wielders.


A3 Example 1: Brujah with potence and celerity is scary. Brujah with potence, celerity, and burning blade is scarier still.
A3 Example 2: Having Fortitude while fighting above Brujah is helpful. Having Iron Body (soaking most aggravated damage with stamina) while fighting above Brujah is more helpful still, as it can be at levels 6+.
A3 Example 3: Wielding influences with Dominate and Presence is great. Unless you are opposed by the Bureaucratic Condemnation (or other paperwork rituals), which may only be countered by magic.

Assumptions related to game state / magic accessibility:

I felt these were more straightforward, so I've simply listed them:

Assumption 4: Many more characters than before have magic paths on their sheets.  
Assumption 5: The number of paths and rituals available is larger than before.
Assumption 6: Magic is also more available to out-of-clan members, and clans which did not have magic access previously.

Rebuttals
The most successful rebuttals will refute an assumption, or add a new assumption I've missed and refute that.

Additional problems (ex: some magic powers currently available should not be available at all, we have too many unique character types, etc.) should be in their own thread.

If you'd like to support this with additional examples, just mark the assumption you feel they support, or name and number a new one.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

Taking the argument as it stands, which is to stay it simply addresses the perceived amount of magical access vs those without magical access. The arguments below seem to suggest the reduction of magic rather then spreading its access to those clans normally without access. Taken in stride...

Jan 1, 2014 18:49:20 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

What's The Big Problem?
I think there are a few potential problems to be considered, let's start with this statement:

Non-magical character concepts are devalued by the current level of magic in our game.

Clarifications:
"Level" refers to both strength (kinds of paths & rituals) and breadth (number of characters with access)..

This statement leads only to reduction in magic strength and availability, not its elimination. Please avoid scarecrow arguments around settings with no magic at all.

I will agree that this seems to be the argument. A more interesting question to me isn't that more magic devalues non-magic concepts so much as does magical concepts devalue them at all? And if that is the case, what difference does quantity have to that statement?

Assumptions:

First Assumption: Magic provides access to effects or information that have major benefits above and beyond regular disciplines.

A1 Example 1: After technology, Dominate, Auspex, and Animalism have exhausted all possible witnesses, spirits of the umbra, ghosts, and the spirits of the materials themselves are still available for interrogation.
A1 Example 2: The level 3 Framing ritual (anarch cookbook) is a perfect mask at 5 successes on an appearance+subterfuge diff 8 roll, ignoring all powers of Auspex, technology, and affecting every observer.
A1 Example 3: Path of Blood 3's ability to raise generation allows the user to protect themselves from Dominate entirely while under its effects.

Example 1- True. Speaking from personal experience, however, I have found Auspex itself to be the only tool one really needs in investigating most things. While my character often likes citing sources of a supernatural origin in his investigations, he usually does this to boast rather than cite them. Spirits Touch is dirty.

Example 2- This is a ritual that frustrates me and I refuse to buy. So I will concede this particular one. I don't like that book being in play. (says the anarch with nothing from that book on his sheet)

Example 3- Again, I will concede that point; that is a very effective effect. However, there are plethora of non-Dominate methods of effecting another character. Not the least of which is the truly fantastic effects of Presence now, and just mundane seduction or oratory checks.

Second Assumption: Many magic effects can only be countered by other magic (if at all), making magic the best tool in most plans.

A2 Example 1 : If I travel the city by foot or car, influences, static tests and certain discipline usages can track me. If I walk into the shadowlands, abyss, or any other magic means of travel, only magic will be helpful.

A2 Example 2: If I wish to attack someone in their haven, I must assault each security system to gain entrance. Or I cast a ritual and walk incorporeally through everything. Or enter their haven from the shadowlands. The only prevention for this is another ritual.

Example 1- In a world that properly portrays these other realms, doing what you propose here is incredibly dangerous and not something that will be any way better than walking the city. Further, it hasn't been stated that you can't use these influences to track people in other worlds. I would think that Occult Influence might be able to do just that. Or Church. Hell, with the EQ system, I'd argue that University or Industry could be used as well. It's a very easy device in our crafting system that will allow you to look into other worlds (thank you Pentex source material). In short: the other worlds are very easy to perceive now.

Example 2- Yes its true, you could do that. Or you could use a variety of disciplines to get into the haven through other supernatural methods including Telepathy or Possession or any combo of that. Further incorporeal passage is of limited value in this. Ghostbody is magnitudes more valuable, but again in the source material suggests that this can have very dangerous consequences. Further, entering via the Shadowlands or Umbra can also be made more difficult with Influences or Allies. Human hunters have a history in this game of destroying swaths of the shadowland.

Third Assumption: The outcome of most of 'major situations' is improved for magic-wielders.


A3 Example 1: Brujah with potence and celerity is scary. Brujah with potence, celerity, and burning blade is scarier still.
A3 Example 2: Having Fortitude while fighting above Brujah is helpful. Having Iron Body (soaking most aggravated damage with stamina) while fighting above Brujah is more helpful still, as it can be at levels 6+.
A3 Example 3: Wielding influences with Dominate and Presence is great. Unless you are opposed by the Bureaucratic Condemnation (or other paperwork rituals), which may only be countered by magic.

Example 1- This example is made equally as nasty with say... Burning Wrath, or Protean or Serpentis.

Example 2- Yeah... also true with mundane Armor or Serpentis.

Example 3- I haven't experienced this particular ritual affecting any of my stuff. Though I suppose it could. The same could be said of Fame. Also, most magic clans don't have access to Presence & Dominate as some others might. The triple tag of disciplines and Resources is way better than a low level ritual.

Assumptions related to game state / magic accessibility:

I felt these were more straightforward, so I've simply listed them:

Assumption 4: Many more characters than before have magic paths on their sheets.  
Assumption 5: The number of paths and rituals available is larger than before.
Assumption 6: Magic is also more available to out-of-clan members, and clans which did not have magic access previously.

Assumption 4- This might be true, I don't have access to the papertable so I'm not sure. I believe this is an assumption, but I am skeptical.

Assumption 5- I agree that there are more in print, yes. However, the breadth of these powers have always been available. We've had setite sorcerers, hindi tremere, and all manner of assamite sorcerer in play for years. Now we just have a shitload of house rules to go with it.

Assumption 6- This has always been the case. Almost every staffer comes back with a non-magic clan with magic on it. It's a proud EC tradition. Now it's just available without a term on staff.

Rebuttals
The most successful rebuttals will refute an assumption, or add a new assumption I've missed and refute that.

Additional problems (ex: some magic powers currently available should not be available at all, we have too many unique character types, etc.) should be in their own thread.

If you'd like to support this with additional examples, just mark the assumption you feel they support, or name and number a new one.

My only rebuttal to this is that none of the above addresses anything specific. While it's proposed in a profession and intelligent manner, it sites no data which is crucial for these types of arguments, specifically the demographics question. A lot of timeline is also fabricated in the above. It says that things are more available now then previous. Previous can be defined, as I believe you intend it to be as Post Schetzle 1.0 and Pre Sean. Given that scope of time, I would argue that Pre-Sean many of the above does not hold true, specifically with non-magic clans having magic. There was also a time when the Gangrel clan would murder those who had protean, but that doesn't mean it is preferable to what we have now.

Without some hard evidence on the A) percent of magic users previously in play before (as defined above) vs B) the percentage of magic users we have in play currently, this is all immaterial. Further, I would state that we would need further evidence of the magic users having spent more of their XP on things previously unallowed or unavailable for much of the above to hold water.

I will concede points that yes Magic is a valuable and versatile tool. I will disagree that it is a problem. I will further say that the more magic that is floating around in game, the less valuable each of the magic users becomes in relation to one another and the more valuable non-magic concepts will become again in swing. The more XP we spend in weird niche powers, the less we have to spend on the stock disciplines, which, point of fact, are far more valuable than any individual path or ritual.

[Kevin K]

I agree we should verify the demographics assumptions, but unless the intuition of very many people is off, I think it's correct. And I include you in that intuition as you say, "Almost every staffer comes back with a non-magic clan with magic on it. [...] Now it's just available without a term on staff." That would necessarily lead to an increase, wouldn't you expect?

In a world that properly portrays these other realms, doing what you propose here is incredibly dangerous and not something that will be any way better than walking the city.

I'm not sure what you mean. Walking the city isn't dangerous for kindred at all. Do you mean that (for example) something like 1/3rd of all trips to the shadowland, etc. should result in character death for elder/high stat characters by attacks from NPC creatures?

I will further say that the more magic that is floating around in game, the less valuable each of the magic users becomes in relation to one another and the more valuable non-magic concepts will become again in swing.

I don't understand your second conclusion here, that the proliferation of magic makes non-magic concepts more valuable. Based on the assumptions above, magic powers do not limit their access to non-magical powers and abilities, and in many cases trump those powers outright.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

Jan 1, 2014 20:33:15 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

I agree we should verify the demographics assumptions, but unless the intuition of very many people is off, I think it's correct. And I include you in that intuition as you say, "Almost every staffer comes back with a non-magic clan with magic on it. [...] Now it's just available without a term on staff." That would necessarily lead to an increase, wouldn't you expect?

I would expect that very thing, yes. But, given who I've seen on staff and how little I like them having power of any kind, I can safely say that I'd rather magic be available for any willing to jump through the hoops then ONLY those selected for a term on staff.

In a world that properly portrays these other realms, doing what you propose here is incredibly dangerous and not something that will be any way better than walking the city.

I'm not sure what you mean. Walking the city isn't dangerous for kindred at all. Do you mean that (for example) something like 1/3rd of all trips to the shadowland, etc. should result in character death for elder/high stat characters by attacks from NPC creatures?

I would LOVE to see that. Yes.

I will further say that the more magic that is floating around in game, the less valuable each of the magic users becomes in relation to one another and the more valuable non-magic concepts will become again in swing.
I don't understand your second conclusion here, that the proliferation of magic makes non-magic concepts more valuable. Based on the assumptions above, magic powers do not limit their access to non-magical powers and abilities, and in many cases trump those powers outright.

That hasn't been my experience with it, no. I have seen Presence trump my stuff more often than anything else. Animalism has yielded just as much investigation results as my magical ones. I've seen clever non-magic give just as much awesome as clever magic. XP is the ultimate arbiter here.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Rob already said pretty much the same points I would have raised here, so I'll refrain from repeating the same things. Before I throw my hat in on this, I want to say how much I appreciate the civil and calm way this is presented. It's a rare thing to see on the boards and it is appreciated. I will make every effort to preserve the polite tone herein. I try to respond with the same level of civility I am shown in the original posts (which perceptions of being attacked have led to my usual vitriolic reputation). However this post is quite civil and I will make every effort to respond in kind.

That said...

Non-magical character concepts are devalued by the current level of magic in our game.

Clarifications:
"Level" refers to both strength (kinds of paths & rituals) and breadth (number of characters with access)..

This statement leads only to reduction in magic strength and availability, not its elimination. Please avoid scarecrow arguments around settings with no magic at all.

I would also contest this assertion on its face. Now I have never and will never claim that magic is "balanced". It's not. But neither are the other powers in Vampire. There however is a major difference between having a power that is more powerful than your power and devaluing your character.

I cannot really go more into this one without an agreed upon definition of "character". So I would ask for yours as these are your assumptions. I don't believe there is a "right" answer to this question, but I'd like to tailor my rebuttal of this point to your own definition so that we are speaking the same language.

A1 Example 1: After technology, Dominate, Auspex, and Animalism have exhausted all possible witnesses, spirits of the umbra, ghosts, and the spirits of the materials themselves are still available for interrogation.

I think this argument stems from an initial fallacy. This assumption begins from the idea that having different avenues of investigation devalues the others. If I have a team of a Dominate expert Ventrue and a Nosferatu hacker, does the fact that the Dominator can get different information than the Nosferatu invalidate the information the Nosferatu can get? Of course not. Why then does a Tremere using Elemental Mastery to talk to the local spirits invalidate the Nosferatu hacking the security cameras or the Ventrue Dominating witnesses, or for that matter the Toreador using Spirit's Touch or the Gangrel talking to the local animals? I would assert that it doesn't. Multiple sources of information do not invalidate each other. This came up many times in game for me, on both sides of this equation where magic just opened up new options, the same way Dominate or Auspex opened up new options.

Now if I have a character with Thaumaturgy paths focused on investigation AND Dominate AND Auspex AND Animalism AND computer skills AND contacts AND influence, etc. then yes, I will make the other characters involved in an investigation somewhat redundant. However that is an issue of xp and a character focused to investigations rather than a problem with magic.

A1 Example 2: The level 3 Framing ritual (anarch cookbook) is a perfect mask at 5 successes on an appearance+subterfuge diff 8 roll, ignoring all powers of Auspex, technology, and affecting every observer.

I will raise a slight rebuttal to this one in the sheer difficulty of this power to use well. I love this ritual for one reason: It is one of the tiny, tiny number of times in this game when having a high Appearance score will ever matter for something more than vanity. In order to make this ritual be so accurate as to beat Auspex and other supernatural powers of perception, the user needs 5 successes on the Appearance + Subterfuge roll at difficulty 8. This means that a maximum pool of Appearance 5 and Subterfuge 5 and a willpower expenditure is required to reliably succeed at this level. I cannot be absolutely sure but I believe that the majority of people in this game leave their Appearance at 1 or 2, mostly because the Appearance attribute is used for exactly 3 rolls in all of Vampire (this one, Presence 3, and the first roll in the Seduction system). It is certainly not something most Tremere are going to spec to.

So let's assume an average Tremere and determine the real cost of this ritual. It does little real good if the maximum success cannot be gained. Let's assume an initial score of Appearance 2 (for the above reasons) and Subterfuge 3. Increasing Appearance to 5 from 2 will cost 36 xp and raising Subterfuge from 3 to 5 will cost 14. Add 2 xp for the cost of the ritual and to reliably use this ritual as you have described it costs 52 xp. Note that an entire In-Clan discipline from 1-5 only costs 60 to give a sense of scale here.

Now there are workarounds to this cost. The usual ones for magic will not work though. Occult Library will not apply as it is not an Occult roll and Talisman will not apply as that roll is not the ritual activation, but rather a subsequent roll. However combining this effect with the ritual Impressive Visage which adds 2 dice to Appearance rolls would be relevant in this case. However, the most this would cut would be to not require Appearance 5 or the willpower expenditure (or more likely would only be used to garner a higher margin of error for success so that simply testing down once doesn't ruin the effect). This would decrease the cost from 52 xp to 37 (-16 for Appearance 5 and +1 for Impressive Visage).

Now the fact that this ritual is even that easy to enact is another issue entirely. This I would call a problem with the mod-dot system and its difficulty modifier. We all know that a difficulty 8 when actually rolling dice affects the result far more than is represented by -2 dice. However this is a systemic issue with mod-dot and not with magic.

A2 Example 1 : If I travel the city by foot or car, influences, static tests and certain discipline usages can track me. If I walk into the shadowlands, abyss, or any other magic means of travel, only magic will be helpful.

I will totally agree with Rob on the fact that the dangers of the other realms far exceed the dangers of walking down the street in Obfuscate. This can and should be utilized by staff. Personally when my players in Sabbat or in a tabletop game I am running go realm-hopping, I make a WoD check every time to see if something bad is going to happen. These other realms have way more danger than the material world.

A2 Example 2: If I wish to attack someone in their haven, I must assault each security system to gain entrance. Or I cast a ritual and walk incorporeally through everything. Or enter their haven from the shadowlands. The only prevention for this is another ritual.

I could do this with Incorporeal passage, though having used Incorporeal Passage quite regularly, in all honesty Protean 5, Obtenebration 5 or Vicissitude 5 would do it better, and Astral Projection will do it better than those if I also have any of a host of non-physical powers I could use from Astral Projection to cause harm to you. Magic is one way of accomplishing this goal, but it is far from the only way.

Also, depending on what you have set up as your security systems, many disciplines will invalidate certain ones straight out. A high fence is invalidated by Protean's ability to fly. Guard dogs are completely neutralized by Animalism. Strong doors are basically invalidated by Potence. Cameras and facial recognition are invalidated by Obfuscate + False Reflections or Vicissitude.

Furthermore there are several security features that magic really doesn't have a way to solve. Hidden door, or maze-like tunnels being a fine example. It doesn't matter if I can walk through the walls if I constantly get lost along the way or can't find the hidden door I'm supposed to ghost through. In fact here is a situation where non-magical disciplines (mostly Auspex or possibly Animalism to talk to local rats) become far more valuable than magic.

See the previous rebuttal above for reasons why realm hopping to accomplish this is a bad idea.

A3 Example 1: Brujah with potence and celerity is scary. Brujah with potence, celerity, and burning blade is scarier still.

Rob made my point pretty well on this but I would like to add a small anecdote. I had Burning Blade as Lechley. I also had Potence and Celerity at 5. I never once used the Burning Blade. Quietus 4 was better when I actually wanted to do aggravated damage. It didn't ruin my obfuscate or stealth checks. And mostly I didn't want to do aggravated damage. Most of the time the combat in this game it is less advantageous to actually kill your opponent than it is to torpor them or stake them. Far too many social ramifications for final death to make it the option of choice except when absolutely necessary in my opinion.

A3 Example 2: Having Fortitude while fighting above Brujah is helpful. Having Iron Body (soaking most aggravated damage with stamina) while fighting above Brujah is more helpful still, as it can be at levels 6+.

This has been invalidated by the clarifications (and actually these ones I'll straight up call house rules) nerf to Iron Body and the buff to Fortitude. Iron Body now only soaks Impact based aggravated damage the same way as does Serpentis 3, but provides no difficulty reduction on the soak roll. This means that it cannot be used to soak fire, sunlight, or mystical aggravated damage. Furthermore with the house rule allowing a blood point to be spent to gain automatic successes from one's Fortitude, I would say that Fortitude is far more valuable, as it should be. As earlier in the investigation example, a character with BOTH Iron Body and Fortitude is a crazy soak beast, however this is not the norm for Tremere, and would require a significant expenditure in an out of clan discipline, which again is a matter of xp, not of magic.

A3 Example 3: Wielding influences with Dominate and Presence is great. Unless you are opposed by the Bureaucratic Condemnation (or other paperwork rituals), which may only be countered by magic.

Again I would assert that this is rendered invalid by the clarification I wrote while on staff for both of these rituals. Literally all that either Expedient Paperwork or Bureaucratic Condemnation will do is to either increase or decrease the required time for a Bureaucracy Influence action. That is it. Only that one Influence and all they do is modify the time it takes. They are a nice side perk if focusing in Bureaucracy, but I would definitely agree that having both Dominate and Presence in clan is a far greater advantage to the Influence game.

Assumption 4: Many more characters than before have magic paths on their sheets.

I cannot refute this with certainty (and in truth no one truly can except the staff and I would find it highly inappropriate of them to publish that data anyway). I can say that I don't believe that we on Sean's staff approved more magical characters than the norm (in fact, we had many many arguments about magical characters and were very critical on any concept that involved blood magic to ensure it fit canon well). However, as this is not a point that can ever be truly proven or refuted I'd ask it be removed from this debate.

I'll also second Rob's question as to your definition of "before". Before Sean? Before Brendan? How long before? I personally over the years I've been here have seen a gradual increase in the permissibility of this game rather than a strict cut-off point. Now there have been spikes, but this isn't a clear definition of "old game" and "new game", at least not from my perspective.

Assumption 5: The number of paths and rituals available is larger than before.

First of all, see above for queries on the definition of "before".

Second, I'm not sure if this is accurate either. From what I've seen, the only difference has been that now we are out in the open about what powers are available, and have made an effort to ensure that all of those powers have been looked at and important clarifications to White Wolf's trademark vague and awful writing have been made as well as any necessary adjustments for LARP play. It is also now clear that these powers are available for any player who presents the right story, whether that be an awesome story at character creation or an in game quest, rather than only being available to a select group of favored players or those who can best sweet-talk an ST.

Additionally, if this is accurate, it is not only blood magic availability that has increased. By removing the ban list, this opened up merits, combination disciplines, backgrounds, alternate discipline levels, and other systems, not to mention other bloodlines. So even if this is accurate, it has increased availability of many things and not only blood magic.

Assumption 6: Magic is also more available to out-of-clan members, and clans which did not have magic access previously.

Again I cannot speak with surety on this one and no one really should as it would violate player trust. As such I ask that this be stricken for the same reasons as Assumption 4.

In response to Rob's response to this, I will also add a note of support. To the best of my knowledge, from Sean's staff exactly 2 of us came off staff with magic: myself and Brad. I was playing an Assamite who already had magic before I left and simply continued my training to acquire more, and he was playing a Tremere. I cannot state for certain that others did not as I have not seen their sheets, but I do not believe that anyone else came off of staff with magic of any kind.

Now I remember the days of the ludicrousness that was Cammie and her ST gift of "I can have as much Thaumaturgy as I want and the Tremere aren't allowed to touch me for it". I am proud to see the ST gift go the way of the dodo, and I will give the credit for that where it is due to a previous staff (I can't remember for sure if it was Schetzle's or Jeff Meaders' staff who first did away with it but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two).

On this point I can only say that I'm 99% sure (I could be forgetting one in which case I apologize) that our staff did not approve any new characters for magic who do not have it in clan (or at least in type like Setite Sorcery which no one has in clan). Sean was actually on a rather die-hard kick that the odder sorceries absolutely needed to fit the perfect character for them, and that perfect character was defined as being an exemplar of canon for the appropriate paradigm.

As far as characters learning magic in game from other PCs, that is not something we can really stop except by enforcing the canon world and IC consequences of such actions (I distinctly remember the rather vicious punishment we handed to to a Tremere found to have taught Thaumaturgy outside the clan). Furthermore, Sean's staff instituted a house rule requiring that it take months to learn a blood magic out of clan (8 months minus the learning character's Intelligence score). So if anything I would say we made this harder, not easier.

As for learning from NPCs, I would attest that if someone goes through the appropriately difficult story to earn a rare power in game, they have then earned that power. Assuming you agree with that statement (I hope you do but I won't put words in your mouth), the only point of contest may be setting a difficulty scale as to what constitutes an appropriately difficult and dangerous quest to acquire magic. This is a definition that will always change from staff to staff and because it is such a subjective call, there is no real way to adjudicate it. Some staffs will always be more conservative and some staffs will always be more lenient.


TL;DR: I appreciate the polite tone of this debate and really hope it can stay that way and not devolve into people yelling (very much including myself). I disagree with most of these assumptions for various reasons and think that many of the ones that are true have other mitigating factors. I personally cannot comprehend how any power on someone else's sheet invalidates my character. I will play who I will play regardless of whether the guy sitting across from me is a Core Book only Ventrue or a Kiasyd/Baali Apostate with Dark Thaumaturgy and every awful infernal trick in hell. I prefer that whatever characters are allowed in make some degree of canon sense so that at least we are roleplaying on the same framework, but I trust the STs to be the arbiters of that. So no, I don't see magic as a problem, however unbalanced it might be.

[Kevin K]

Jan 1, 2014 21:08:27 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

given who I've seen on staff and how little I like them having power of any kind, I can safely say that I'd rather magic be available for any willing to jump through the hoops then ONLY those selected for a term on staff.

This seems to be a different problem, more about the low bar: high levels of magic powers available only to former staff is a bad thing. I don't disagree, but it's a different topic.

Jan 1, 2014 21:08:27 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

That hasn't been my experience with it, no. I have seen Presence trump my stuff more often than anything else. Animalism has yielded just as much investigation results as my magical ones. I've seen clever non-magic give just as much awesome as clever magic. XP is the ultimate arbiter here.

You mention Presence, which is surprising to me. Pavis takes care of all but Majesty, and Path of Blood will take care of that (eclipse the users' generation by more than two and spend a single willpower). Why is it still a problem?

The investigation comments seem to be addressing that portion of the first assumption, which was:

First Assumption: Magic provides access to effects or information that have major benefits above and beyond regular disciplines.

Do you agree with the general thrust of that assumption? Maybe you mean that information is perhaps an exception? You didn't say either way in your first response. Unless you're arguing that STs change their interpretation over time to favor the non-magical?

For my side, I hold to what I wrote.

In the specific example of Auspex, Assamite magic trumps Auspex, with the house-created Level 3 ritual Emotional Conduit. It has a specific exception for Wooden Tongues, however, another magic path. Other examples exist (Koldunic Sorcery: Spirit for current happenings, for example), or the ability to not be present during most of the transit (Incorporeal passage, ghost body).

As for Animalism, there is an obvious counter: animal ken the skill, hunting, tracking, poisons, or the animalism discipline itself. What defense can you propose against interviewing the watching dead, curious umbral spirits, or the sprits of the floor and walls themselves?

And an anecdote from last Saturday. I experienced an example of magic being simply more effective and efficient. Another character and I pursued a (presumably NPC) that we had gotten wind of. We got a camera description and began to set to work. A ritual from another character allowed some kind of remote-protective-instant-viewing that immediately eliminated everything we needed to do. Our scene went from 'interesting' to 'over' very quickly. Maybe there was stuff we could have gotten, but this magic was instant.

[Styx]

I hope this isn't a terrible example, but to put it in a very blunt fashion, I liken Magic to a gun. Now, in a game where a few characters have a gun, (the Tremere, the Giovanni) it can spice things up and make you VERY wary when a gun-toter invites you over at midnight for solitary tea-time. It can make you distrustful of that person or persons, and it should be that way according to most everything I have read about 'canon' Vampire.

What we have here is a sudden influx of guns, to where most everyone can now own a gun. And you might say "Hey, it's my right!" or "it's just a gun", but that's not the point. The point is, NOW we have guns everywhere, available on every street corner. Now, in order to protect yourself from that gun wielder, you not only need a gun, but you need a BIGGER gun. A RARER gun. And then, those get passed out too, like candy. And what's more, the gun is better than a bow, or a knife. It may have it's drawbacks, sure, but it more than makes up for those with it's advantages. What's the point of bringing a knife to a gunfight? What's the point of playing an archer concept who has spent 300 years developing his skills, when any old bastard can walk up with a big enough gun and simply obliterate the target?

I've played a magic user (once), and it was fun, no denying that. The power at your fingertips is delicious. But that was A magic user. In a city of 3/4th's non-magic users (at the time). and He was feared and hated and suspected of all manner of things he didn't do (or did to a much lesser extent). It was perfect for the setting.
I don't mind magic users, not at all. I don't mind weird rare snowflake concepts either, obviously.

I mind ALL of them ALL at once. I mind having no set limit for how many guns are in play at one time. That's all.

[Ikon]

An armed society is a polite society.

[Kevin K]

A brief response to general topics before the full one for Jaron:

If we agree that Magic isn't balanced (as you say), then all the talk about powers is just semantics. I agree with your points that other things are also imbalanced, but that isn't the topic here.

What is 'before'? For myself, it's before I came back after my most recent ~2 year hiatus. I think the first staff I interacted with was Sean's, and I remember Sean saying many times that "I'm not making anything new, I'm making visible what is already present." Very well, then whoever was before Sean. Rather than name names though, I'm thinking vs about 3 years ago. I don't hold any nostalgia of glory days, but this is a palpable difference in the game, I believe.

You asked for a definition of 'character', I assume you mean 'devalued character'? I'm looking at people who play concepts and are told (by gameplay) "Everything you can do, I can do better." That's what I fear vanilla concepts feel when surrounded by magic.

An example, for clarity. A 'haven security' expert with much crafts dice pools, and the ability to design extremely powerful structures able to slow down even high-level Potence users. And then they meet someone with Path of Warding 1, who rolls his regular willpower like every other power and has exactly the same effect, along with literally 10-15 other powers.

[Bertie]

Now before I begin, I'm not saying this as part of the AST team of either Joe or Kevin's ticket.

Personally I think thaumaturgy is too cheap to buy with xp. The initial path often counts as an out of clan discipline, but subsequent paths are only current rating x4. Additionally rituals are dirt cheap at 1xp per level. The argument I've seen stated for the price break is that paths of thaumaturgy are not as powerful as true disciplines, but I don't think anyone in this game actually believes that.

If I could change anything I wanted about the game what I'd do is bump up the cost of secondary Thaumaturgy paths to at the very least 5x current. Secondly I think rituals make more sense at the cost of 3xlevel like they are for Abyssal Mysticism currently.

Such a drastic change shouldn't be put into game lightly though, and probably not without a player vote at the very least.

Additionally, I love Abyssal Mysticism. I think its a great system. For those who aren't familiar Abyssal Mysticism is a series of thaumaturgical rituals built around the non-thaumaturgical discipline of Obtenebration. There are no secondary paths. I think a similar system used with some other disciplines would make a lot of sense. I would especially love to see Animalism and Dementation rituals.

[Sethron]

If thaum cost more, I wouldn't mind it. As a vanilla character without magic and with all "Caitiff 8" disciplines, I don't feel invalidated by Magic, I just feel like I don't have enough experience to keep up.

That's just me, though. I'm not really arguing here, just saying stuff. This thread is simply magnificent to read, by the way.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

A variety of retorts:

Majesty is not undone by Path of Blood 3; the system to resist supersedes the ability to resist general Presence. You're rolling your Courage against a difficulty of that guys Charisma+Intimidation. Even in mod-dot, that's rough and still costs a WP per attempt.

To retort to the specific examples: Yes, having other abilities opens other avenues of power. Saying that Animalism can be undone with Animalism is not an argument I accept since you are equally rejecting that magic can counter magic; if you have a power I don't, you have an advantage over me regardless if it's magic based or otherwise.

Retort to spirits/wraiths: Having the ability to communicate with a thing doesn't mean that A) there were any present B) they knew anything or C) they would be willing to help even if they did. The same argument could be stated for humans on a scene. If there are humans and I lack Dominate/Presence/Auspex, they aren't going to be much use to me either. I will concede that this opens another avenue for information, but it is rarely a fruitful one. Also, the re-write of Wooden Tongues makes it damn near useless. In my experience.

Retort to travel: Incorporeal Passage should not be able to be used with anything other than walking in a straight line. That makes it particularly difficult to use in Seattle with its twists and turns, and using a vehicle of any kind is right out for both of these powers.

Retort to Saturday anecdote: I wasn't there for the scene, so I have no idea what occurred. I know that magic always takes time, usually a significant amount of time, and it always costs something. However, as you said, you had access to magic, so I don't see the issue. Pulling out the big guns for every problem quickly makes the game unfun, which is actually a very vampire themed problem. What do you do with eternity when you can snap your fingers and win? Jyhad, my friend...

Retort to David: I haven't found that to be the case at all, in regards to needing bigger and badder guns. Thaum powers rarely directly counter one another, so needing magic to defend against it doesn't really hold water to me. This is, to me, another example of fear tactics building up a cold war scenario that I'm not really feeling personally. Which I guess means either I am immune to it or sitting on the biggest nuke (which I highly doubt is the case). While I appreciate the idea of limits, I believe that you were a motivating factor in removing those limits. You've played enough snowflakes to know that

Regardless, with a personal rebuttal, the game used to be rather droll when you knew who held the guns. Someone would invite you over for tea and you'd say "Nope, Tremere, f-off, you have guns." Now you have to wonder which Ventrue has Dur-An-Ki and which Brujah has mortal based sorcery. Now the game offers you a true, chilling sense of having absolutely no idea of what a given character is capable of. I think we're all missing the boat here: this is an opportunity to EMBRACE THE SETTING. This is a chance for us to step aside from the OOC Metagaming that happens every game and in nearly every interaction. Now, instead of me being able to look at a character and saying "You're a Brujah, two years of play with a combat bend. You probably have X, Y, and Z. I can handily counter X and Z, but Y is a problem. Here is how I know to get around that..." now I have to look at a character and say "Which St have you been talking too? Which system have you learned? Which power structure exists within your paradigm? WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE?!"

Don't you understand how thrilling that is for a guy like me? The game isn't simple math anymore, now its calculus. Its not just a simple formula to win every encounter, now its a tactical challenge with more then a little guessing. Now even if I have some idea of what's on a sheet, I might still have no idea how that works.

I'm really going to implore the playerbase here to embrace this, at least for a bit. This is the first time in years, at least from my experience, that the game isn't static. Ventrue might have anything. Brujah might have anything. If you're a clever player, you might have made a combo thing or crafty thing to counter my shit. That's invigorating as hell, and I would please, please, please ask those who are nervous about that to set aside the metagaming of that problem and embrace it IC.

Saying that we have too much weird stuff OOC is like complaining about politics on Facebook. Take it IC. You have more then enough tools to make a difference. And if you don't have the IC knowledge to know its a problem then IT PROBABLY WASN'T TO BEGIN WITH.

Please, give it a chance guys. This mutation of game is thrilling and I'm all for it.

[Styx]

I have the blessing (Curse?) of being able to see your points, Rob, and agree with them, even while I still see the other side. Oddly, which makes me feel just a little bit schizophrenic, I agree with ALL points by everyone.

[Kevin K]

Responses in red, but first a general comment:

It seems that, like Jaron, you agree that these powers are a "step up" from the norm, based on your comments about arithmetic vs calculus. The rest of these details are semantics once we've accepted that point. In the context of this thread, I think we agree on the assumptions pretty much as-listed, but don't agree that it leads to the conclusion of devaluing non-magic characters.  For you and Jaron both, I think that's the direction this conversation should head, rather than getting lost in the weeds of examples of particular powers.

Jan 2, 2014 20:27:52 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

A variety of retorts:

Majesty is not undone by Path of Blood 3; the system to resist supersedes the ability to resist general Presence. You're rolling your Courage against a difficulty of that guys Charisma+Intimidation. Even in mod-dot, that's rough and still costs a WP per attempt.

Fair enough, you'll need to find/research Dominion for that instead. Another 5xp, and it covers everything in your target area. The assumption still holds: Magic has a counter for anything, but many magic powers have no counter in vanilla powers.

To retort to the specific examples: Yes, having other abilities opens other avenues of power. Saying that Animalism can be undone with Animalism is not an argument I accept since you are equally rejecting that magic can counter magic; if you have a power I don't, you have an advantage over me regardless if it's magic based or otherwise.

You're right on Animalism as a bad example because it requires you to get Animalism. But Animal Ken is a great one. I figure out how to get the attention of certain creatures and kill/relocate them. That's available to everyone, as opposed to things for contacting wraiths or spirits, which are magic-only. MAAAYBE occult contacts, but I'm 0-for-3 on requests on that front personally.

Retort to spirits/wraiths: Having the ability to communicate with a thing doesn't mean that A) there were any present B) they knew anything or C) they would be willing to help even if they did. The same argument could be stated for humans on a scene. If there are humans and I lack Dominate/Presence/Auspex, they aren't going to be much use to me either. I will concede that this opens another avenue for information, but it is rarely a fruitful one. Also, the re-write of Wooden Tongues makes it damn near useless. In my experience.

A and B depends very much on the ST, and I can think of two instances where it was the lynchpin. And for C (willingness), higher levels of the power pretty well overrides that.

But wraiths/spirits are just one example. Let's change tacks here and talk about Scry and Eyes of the Past. What compares with being able to simply view what is happening? What can counter it?  Only magic.

Retort to travel: Incorporeal Passage should not be able to be used with anything other than walking in a straight line. That makes it particularly difficult to use in Seattle with its twists and turns, and using a vehicle of any kind is right out for both of these powers.

I agree on should, but as house-written, do you agree that it's as devastating as I describe? How would one defend against it without magic?

Let me see if I can frame your second statement (embrace the setting) in the context of this thread (I rolled it together with your retort to my Saturday experience):

(my paraphrase)
Having broad access to magic makes the game more fun because you don't know what to expect in any given interaction, especially for people who have played this system for a very long time.

I can agree with this, actually, as far as it goes. Magic is fun for magic-users. But for everyone else it's not fun to pick up the scraps. 

And if you're not familiar with the setting, like the new players we would like to welcome, you're in for a shock. Think you're somewhat safe because you have specialized in haven security, gathered materials, crafted tools, pulled influence, spent money and rolled big dice for your haven, and even paid someone to ward it? Path of Mercury just gets you killed anyway.

Saying that we have too much weird stuff OOC is like complaining about politics on Facebook. Take it IC. You have more then enough tools to make a difference. And if you don't have the IC knowledge to know its a problem then IT PROBABLY WASN'T TO BEGIN WITH.

I have no IC motivation to argue for fewer access to these tools and powers. The gangrel all-thing was a great example. A group gets together and asks themselves, "should we have more power? YES".  What would you suggest I do IC that will oppose the Great Pack?  Sounds like a fun thing to do on my last night at game, maybe.

As a player, I have concerns. Magic is versatile, and in the hands of smart people like we have at game that means that, generally, magic wins.

And for everyone else, it isn't fun to lose.  That's what devalues characters.  If your concept is impotent in the face of a single power or ritual of magic, it's devalued.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

I have a feeling that continued itemized replies aren't going to improve this debate any. I see where you're going and I'll say simply that I don't think people having magic makes people without magic stop having fun. A lot of the above is far more limited than you are taking into consideration.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

I didn't think it would be any fun to potentially play against magic users, specifically Luthias at the time in a PvP setting. That's why when I looked around at the time Sean's staff took office and the story for Mad Tom came down via Jeron with all of the mass clarifications and the intent to do the same with Thaum... Then the fairly regular pc deaths via that character... Well I figured there was about a 50/50 chance that they (the staff) via "the city" would eventually pit Mad Tom against him, and there was absolutely no way Tom could take down that PC without a serious out of clan discipline spread.

I didn't want the PC thrown against that brick wall without at least a chance to do some damage before dying like a total punk. I resolved to play Mad Tom like the Fanatic he is no matter what powers they did or didn't allow, but yeah.

Going up against Luthias without something to back it up...

It wouldn't have been any fun.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Since he's already dead, do you know that the only reason Luthias survived an attack by 2 mortals was a lucky test up 4 times on a Perception check? Seriously. In this system ANYONE can be killed if the setup is done correctly. I will meet that challenge every time.

Magic does not always win. Take my own character death for instance. Sure, Richter had a Burning Bladed dagger, but that wasn't the point. I would have been just as dead if he had been a non-magical character at the time. I died to guile and trickery and because I trusted the wrong person. I had 4 paths of Sorcery maxed and over 30 rituals and none of it could save me from a knife. All advantages are situational. Own the situation and you win.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Is magic a significant advantage in the World of Darkness? Yes, absolutely.

Does every player (not necessarily character but that is by choice) have the same opportunities to acquire magic if he/she so desires? Yes they do, either by playing a clan that gets access or by going on the same kind of difficult quests that might grant it as a reward.

It seems to me we have a quite fair system in place. I'm not seeing the inequity here.

[Jeff]

One response on the Mortal Sorcery Aspect.... it is really quite expensive. 8xp x New Rating for paths in Mortal sorcery. Yup, super pricey. Though the countermagic portion is relatively inexpensive. It also only sorta has rituals.

Remember what used to balance rituals? Learning times.

It was a pain in the ass to keep track of, but ritual learn times, from the Thaum book, used to be ( Please forgive my inexact numbers, I'm at work right now and don't have access to the books from here, so this is just a remembered estimate, someone correct me if I'm wrong )

Lvl 1: 1 week
Lvl 2: 2 week
Lvl 3: Month
Lvl 4: 2 month
Lvl 5: 3 months

[BLewis]

A lot of people seem to still be dancing around the issue, so here's the answer, bluntly.

What keeps tyrannical magic users alive? Fear.

That's it. Fear. If everyone is too afraid to do anything (See Luthias and Mayek), they get to keep on existing until something bigger happens upon them. A more personal reference point, as soon as the Davey Contingent (TM) decided they wanted my PC dead, regardless the reasoning, the timer had started. Why? Because they're used to PC death, so imparting it on others is just another Saturday. Whereas Mad Tom had to go hat-in-hand to others, begging for help to kill a character, and lucking out on an eleventh hour hit.

Why did Luthias last so long? Because no one acted against him, because he was the boogeyman that everyone knew about.

And as far as the question of "Is magic fun for everyone or not?" Consider that half of the game voted in the new Gangrel Magic. Half. Brand new magic. People who voted against it largely already had magic, non-magic clans included. What does game want? I'd say it wants magic. Trying to claim it's the villain of the week when everyone seems to want it is nonsensical and, in many cases in this thread, hypocritical.