New Toreador Plot and Mechanics Discussion

[Wit]

Some of this, might be able to be more concept then hard system, but some of both can help flush it out over time.

I think one of the things this could do is connect them more easily to the outside world. They talk, and talk well. Its obvousliy not just about Tori's looking down their nose in the same room, or same city even, but being able to get France, London, and New York to all look down their nose to you.

A lot of these social bits need the grander world to exist. If the only power is locally... then only local might matters. If its otherwise, well there are Society and group memberships out there, and perhaps Tori's should be the leaders of membership, able to more easily get into social groups and net work like that. Sure some over lap locally in these guilds or groups is good, but its also paths for them to act, and get plot.

Maybe the Weavers Guild is getting annoyed at the Tattoo guild for making people wear shorter shirts so as to not cover tattoos... Or who knows what. Or Heck, This guild wants to work w/ x clan, and other guilds elsewhere.


It can be great plot, it can offer players goal setting and something to do... Building perhaps even coteries around them to support their guild tasks >_>

[Styx]

I'm just going to comment here and say that I don't understand what appears to be an immediately hostile reaction from some of The players, and I encourage everyone to try to refrain from inflammatory or vitriolic responses. The STs are not trying to take anyone's cookies away, they're simply trying to add more excitement and flavor to a clan that some have viewed as a vapid and boring clan to play (sentiments other people have expressed to me over the years; i personally enjoy toreador, but its valid when looking at a lot of the other clans and what they "do" to raise an eyebrow at the toreador in ECC. They don't magic, they often don't influence, and public opinion is often that they simply make pretty pictures and cry. While its true that roleplay should take care of a lot of that perception, its also true that most toreador Don't do anything to counter that impression. And the ones who do? I have inside information from past experience that they're often not toreador ( Troy Romus was a Malkie who thought he was a toreador).

The STs want to give toreador players boosts in making the clan appear as more than "effeminate simpletons" ; don't hate on their attempts to make things better, if those attempts seem misguided or are focusing on the wrong things its perfectly fine to say so. But then at least offer up other solutions.

[Styx]

I'm just going to comment here and say that I don't understand what appears to be an immediately hostile reaction from some of The players, and I encourage everyone to try to refrain from inflammatory or vitriolic responses. The STs are not trying to take anyone's cookies away, they're simply trying to add more excitement and flavor to a clan that some have viewed as a vapid and boring clan to play (sentiments other people have expressed to me over the years; i personally enjoy toreador, but its valid when looking at a lot of the other clans and what they "do" to raise an eyebrow at the toreador in ECC. They don't magic, they often don't influence, and public opinion is often that they simply make pretty pictures and cry. While its true that roleplay should take care of a lot of that perception, its also true that most toreador Don't do anything to counter that impression. And the ones who do? I have inside information from past experience that they're often not toreador ( Troy Romus was a Malkie who thought he was a toreador).

The STs want to give toreador players boosts in making the clan appear as more than "effeminate simpletons" ; don't hate on their attempts to make things better, if those attempts seem misguided or are focusing on the wrong things its perfectly fine to say so. But then at least offer up other solutions.

[Bertie]

Jan 21, 2014 10:35:34 GMT -8 Bubba Kush said:

I realize that you aren't proposing blood magic, but you should not put any system on the social side of vampire. No additional mechanics is the bottom line.

I think that, if you want to give the toreador more power, reinvent the guild. There could be a guild for each city, and they compete with one another for prestige and status. Want a mechanical benefit? Have guild access remove restrictions to growing resources, influences, businesses, etc.

I'm not sure where your objections are coming from Jeremiah. Your last paragraph here is exactly the sort of thing I am looking into. A city wide guild could work to counter the problems Ross encountered when he earlier tried to implement the system. I still think there may be other options worth considering, but your suggestion here is exactly the sort of thing I want to discuss and potentially implement.

Now as far as your previous line, we already have social systems in game. We have status, we have prestige, we have harpies and we have boons. Many of these systems are taken wholesale from the base setting books, or have been extrapolated from already existing material and themes. Even if such setting based social systems are ignored, the game has mechanics for social interaction built in. Presence, and Dominate being the biggest examples here, but even mundane social checks such as Charisma + Expression are part of the very core of the game. I actually think that the social is given such focus is one of the games strengths when compared to other games such as dungeons and dragons.

[Bertie]

Also I updated the second post with links to Chris and Ross's stuff, as well as the Toreador Lore. I also added one link to an already created homebrew toreador guild system that I think would be worthy of discussion as well. I do like their ideas of a guild of patrons and a guild of critics in addition to more traditional guilds, but I'm not sure how usable as a whole it would be in play.

[Katie Hester]

I think Mark has it right in that it requires the grander world to exist. I think a great way to show that the Toreador have social power and pull would be to have the NPCs that the staff send in have ties with the Toreador in the city. Ask the toreador for their take on an issue at hand (like the new status issue) then when that NPC is visiting with the prince or other uppity ups, they drop the Toreador's name in conversation.

This let's those in power know that the Toreador (all of the toreador, even those with low status) have the ears of people outside of the city. People who may come speaking for their elders or sires.

[Ross]

Jan 21, 2014 10:35:34 GMT -8 Bubba Kush said:

Ross is right in that the guild structure does not work for this Larp, because of the low player count and various art interests, but primarily because a source book is not supposed to be canon, it is a tool for sts to use.

Just as a point of clarification, I did not mean to imply that Guilds "cannot" work in ECC, just that my own attempt "did not" work. With enough interested players and creativity on the part of a Staff, I have no doubt that Tori Guilds could be as interesting a 'Clan subplot' as Tremere Secret Societies or Venture Clan Position intrigues.

-Ross

[BLewis]

Guilds are a Toreador-specific example of how larger, global groups operate. Another excellent example are Societies in the Tremere exist.

Are they required? No.

Are they a nice option? Sure.

Do they exist as a great source for contacts, allies, and mentors? Certainly.

[Webmonkey]

The following is all my opinion:

I applaud Kevin for adding flavor to the world of the Toreador, and yep, it's absolutely player's choice if they engage in extra fun stuff like Guilds. When I was playing a Toreador I gobbled that up, but as an ST when Toreador chose not to engage with Guild NPC's (snubbing them or outright ignoring them) that was taken as a completely reasonable and in-canon response by the 'world' (because giving Toreador things to snub *IS* Toreador character development).

I think preparing and offering flavor and clan-specific stories based heavily on book stuff with a sprinkling of the two decades of extra flavor that has been generated out in geekdom falls squarely in line with what I *hope* staff will do.

And again, in character choices not to engage in that extra flavor can and should be respected, and some fun roleplay can come of a Toreador recluse disengaging from the world to lose themselves in their art and eschew the trappings of it all.

It lets pcs ask themselves stuff like:

How can my Art be pure if I care what others, even of my own Clan think?

How can I call myself an Elder if I am not herding my fellow cats around as is the norm with those of prestige among the Clan?

It gives Tori players an idea of the 'life cycle' of a Toreador from Neonate to Ancilla to Elder.

And it can all be collected or thrown out as need be by player character choices.

...as long as it is there in the first place.

I see it as a buffet of character choices for the Toreador players to pick and choose from.

Options are good.

Choices are good.

"Enforcement" of these extra things, not good - unless totally player driven, in which case, rad, have at! The player of the Toreador Primogen or Elder wants to try to cajole and press gang all the other Toreador into their Guild? Sounds like good player driven story to me. (And good luck with that, heh.)

Guild NPCs showing up to try to swell it's ranks and offer some in-clan politics and artsy/political story hooks, possible NPC contacts and even mentors? Totally cool. And naturally NPCs player characters wheel and deal with would try to hold people to their bargains like any other NPC.

It doesn't even really matter what the Guilds are or what they 'do' or what their story flavor is. The fact is Tori's are flighty artist types that are a core backbone of the Camarilla, and some story role-play foothold to explain how and why they act like a founding Cam clan instead of a bunch of independent flakes with paint-stained fingers is probably a good thing.

The one balance thing I'd like to actually see is with Crafts is Toreador domination of the understanding and acquisition of Masterpiece Components. (The special quest items needed for Masterpiece crafts). I'd like to see the Toreador be the ultimate gatekeepers of most of these, because that alone would make them very important to a lot of crafters. If the Toreador were the only clan with the 'artistic vision' to see what would be needed to make something at that level, all of the sudden they are sought after artists and they need to be treated with respect by all clans - even independents and the like - who seek to recreate the creative spark of the Artistes. That isn't to say others couldn't craft masterworks, just that they would need a Toreador to tell them what they'd need to do so, and maybe where to get one. In this way, even a Poseur toreador with good clan connections could run a brisk business simply connecting the right people with the right knowledge of what and where to go, with all of the web of risk and reward that comes from getting involved with a world distorting masterwork being crafted by a non-toreador.

[Styx]

+1 to Chris!

[Bubba Kush]

+1 Chris.

Also, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth Ross, sorry.

Kevin, I just don't want this to go to an extreme, such as the vote on the success of a Tore event that you mentioned. I worry that the fun, creative part of being a social character would be stepped on.

Let me give you an example. In order to raise resources, you must make a check, wait an arbitrary amount of months, nd provide X dollars. I was told by previous staff that the mechanics was the "story reason"for raising resources and that frankly breaks my heart. As a player,I cannot choose to forcefully take over a corporation, become an overnight pop star, or other things to raise my resources rating. Instead,I must pull a scene with a staff that had very little time for personal plot, or just suck it up and do some boring dice-rolling for a couple of weeks to "pay the market" or something.

I don't want anything similar for the social carousing, party planning, and backstabbing bitchiness that makes Toreador fun. Have dice rolls, set guidelines, sure. But don't put a system in place that will take away from creativity.

And yes we have social mechanics, but they aren't used in a Larp. We don't roll dice every time we speak, so we already arbitrate some systems through role-play. There's nothing wrong with that.

Also, I'd rather have AST joh in this discussion. The people who care about Toreador should speak their minds, because passion is what this game (and specifically this clan) is all about.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Jan 21, 2014 11:38:33 GMT -8 Styx said:

I'm just going to comment here and say that I don't understand what appears to be an immediately hostile reaction from some of The players, and I encourage everyone to try to refrain from inflammatory or vitriolic responses. The STs are not trying to take anyone's cookies away, they're simply trying to add more excitement and flavor to a clan that some have viewed as a vapid and boring clan to play (sentiments other people have expressed to me over the years; i personally enjoy toreador, but its valid when looking at a lot of the other clans and what they "do" to raise an eyebrow at the toreador in ECC. They don't magic, they often don't influence, and public opinion is often that they simply make pretty pictures and cry. While its true that roleplay should take care of a lot of that perception, its also true that most toreador Don't do anything to counter that impression. And the ones who do? I have inside information from past experience that they're often not toreador ( Troy Romus was a Malkie who thought he was a toreador).

The STs want to give toreador players boosts in making the clan appear as more than "effeminate simpletons" ; don't hate on their attempts to make things better, if those attempts seem misguided or are focusing on the wrong things its perfectly fine to say so. But then at least offer up other solutions.

+1 David. This is the reason the Toreador clan has never interested me. It's not that they're weak or that I can't get cool powers with them (I'm sorry, from a pure mechanics standpoint Auspex, Celerity, Presence is one of the grossest most powerful discipline spreads in the game) but really that I find them rather empty and boring. I'm not sure what purpose they serve. They've always felt like a last minute slapdash addition because someone who read too much Anne Rice wanted to play the whiny Louis or early Lestat clone.

But they don't have to be. I love some of the ideas I've seen bandied about this thread. Ultimately it almost doesn't matter specifically what is done, but they need something to DO.

Jeremiah I'll agree with you on the point that I don't think they need more strictly mechanical advantages. Mostly what I'd like to see is a better definition of clan structure and what purely IC advantages, both internally and externally they can hold on the city scale and the world stage. This is what is greatly lacking in the Clanbook that is presented far better in most others (though we should be careful what we wish for on that front; it could have ended up like Tremere where they tried so hard to define things that they ended up contradicting themselves 3 times a page). I'd like there to be a reason that their voices matter, and just saying "well make the social game matter more" is too vague to actually accomplish anything, even if that is the eventual goal which I certainly wouldn't object to.

The Toreador stereotype is that of the circle of bitchy, elite snobbish women sitting around gossiping and ruining people's lives over tea. Let's use that! Court gossip is all about reputation. There is a reason that the position of Harpy was meant for the Toreador. It came from Raphael de Corazon and was their role in the Camarilla. They turned an insult into a court position. Now I'm not saying we should force the city to have a Toreador harpy, but all Toreador to a greater or lesser extent should be harpies, in exactly the definition of the word. The Toreador, more than anyone else, should be feared and sought on any matter of status or social positioning. Scandal should be their bread and butter and they should be the intriguers so skilled they topple Justicars with a passing phrase.

But the only way to make their voices actually matter is structure and networking, however informal. So we come back to Guilds, or social clubs, or tea parties or whatever sounds appropriately in theme. The whole point is something that the players can reach out to when they want to properly Toreador like a Toreador should.


I really like the "Gatekeepers to the Masterpiece" bit as well Chris. +1.


On a slight tangent and more personal scale, I think some of the damage to the clan was done with Revised shifting their focus away from a specific art and making them more "general artistes". In 2nd Edition a far greater importance was placed on the individual Toreador and his or her artistic calling. There was a passage that I believe was in the in the 2nd Edition clan book that I still find one of the coolest ideas I've ever come across in this game and one I have no idea how to use but really want to one day. THere's a section where it talks about how the tragedy of the Toreador is that all vampires have lost the spark of creation that would let them ever truly innovate, but the Toreador remember what it was like to have it and know what it is that they lost. It obsesses them to continually try to create and create but while they can mechanically paint or sing or dance or write with far more skill than any human could hope to achieve, they can never really make something truly original again.

[Jeff]

As an aside... I discovered the necessary semi-magical component for my Masterpiece "The Tree" initially through the Toreador Harpy of Berlin and his childe, the Lesser Harpy, that led to at least one Ally among Toreador NPCs.

[Bertie]

Jan 21, 2014 15:14:05 GMT -8 Bubba Kush said:

Let me give you an example. In order to raise resources, you must make a check, wait an arbitrary amount of months, nd provide X dollars. I was told by previous staff that the mechanics was the "story reason"for raising resources and that frankly breaks my heart. As a player,I cannot choose to forcefully take over a corporation, become an overnight pop star, or other things to raise my resources rating. Instead,I must pull a scene with a staff that had very little time for personal plot, or just suck it up and do some boring dice-rolling for a couple of weeks to "pay the market" or something.

I think I'm beginning to see where you are coming from with fearing additional systems. However this specific example is one I don't think fits. You can have an item card with five million dollars on it without having a single dot of the resources background. This could have been gained from other players, or even from efforts your character made in the larger world. Resources is instead a relatively stable source of money. A steady set of investments, or a steady job or the like.  You can play somebody who is a pop star, who makes a pile of money from that, but never bothers to invest it, and ends up blowing it all in a manner of months.

[Bertie]

So I read through Ashen Knight. It wasn't as useful for the purposes of this discussion as I had hoped. Much of the book is solidly focused on Dark Ages. While there are plenty of neat merits and abilities for Toreador Knights then, it doesn't translate as well into the modern day.  (I imagine very few Toreador will take Mighty Steed). The Invictus in Requiem do have some ideas on modern day knights, and other social cliques, so I think I will raid that book next for ideas. Really the only useful bit from Ashen Knight was the Franchise secondary ability, which can fit modern day elitist toreador quite well.

I think it was Jaron who mentioned that he had a problem with Toreador in the setting, where they seemed incredibly ineffective (and lacked in both mechanics and societal backing) but at the same time ended up running both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. My usual argument on the uses of seemingly useless Toreador is that they make an effective cover for more effective Toreador to hide behind.

But I actually had an idea for something that might help.  I've discussed the idea with a few people so far. One idea that's quite popular in modern day conspiracy fiction (vampire included) is that society as a whole is given the choice of one of two competing political factions or leaders. Secretly the two factions are actually in league with each other, and by giving the illusion of opposition they help remove any true dissent. This seemed like a very Toreador thing to do.

So here is something I had in mind.
False Enemy (2-5 point Background)

You have a notable and longstanding enemy or rival. As far as everyone is aware, you and your enemy constantly oppose, and potentially even try to kill each other. This is not actually the case. Instead you have an arrangement with your enemy where you work to attack and ruin the allies that he doesn't actually like, and he does the same on your behalf.

Lets say you have a Sabbat Toreador Antitribu as your false ally.
One day he and his pack murder your primogen.
You shake your fist to the heavens in rage, and promise revenge on your dear friend's death.
But in the meantime, now you are Toreador primogen.

Later on, you repay the favor. This could also potentially be used to sabotage political positions, by having your rival support the opposing viewpoint, only to throw any arguments and deliberately lose.

What do people think so far?

[NOMNOMNOM]

It seems to me that I could get the same effect with a combo of Sleeping with the Enemy and Ally. Not that it's not a clever idea, but we already have the mechanics to represent that sort of relationship...

Man, I'm not very helpful today, am I?

[Wit]

Just an idea for a background, for Tori's letting them (New and old players) A chance to jump into their clans role with relative ease.


Gossip Network

This connection to a network of gossips and a skill in knowing who to talk about when allows news to get around quickly, and nearly anonymously. The more skilled the gossip the quicker information can move further, and the more easily you can hear political rumor abroad.


Something like the reverse of the Nos info net if you will.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Jan 23, 2014 12:46:19 GMT -8 Bertie said:

I think it was Jaron who mentioned that he had a problem with Toreador in the setting, where they seemed incredibly ineffective (and lacked in both mechanics and societal backing) but at the same time ended up running both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. My usual argument on the uses of seemingly useless Toreador is that they make an effective cover for more effective Toreador to hide behind.

It was indeed. I was mentioning it as something that should be highlighted in whatever new thing gets introduced. The idea of the Toredor APPEARING to be useless while actually being quite deadly seems something they do a lot.


I love the new merit and also really like Mark's idea for a Gossip Network. I wouldn't run it the same way as Nos Net, because Nos Net is about obscure random and hard to get information. Gossip Net shouldn't be about finding hard to find information, but rather finding available information first. Maybe the staff sends any kind of public announcements that will be made to those with Gossip Network a few days before any public announcements?

[Tim]

/sneak in

So now I gotta write 5 posts a week about who has the swankiest shoes?

For reals:
Gossip network could be cool however that would focus so much on the outside world. I get the feeling that some of the players who want to play Tori's want to focus more on Seattle then the outside. There are already so many delicious rumors going around.

As for the advance notice on public announcements, I would not want to request players always send them to staff first. Other then that they might get notice on X big wig is coming to town or something? I'm not sure if players would want to invest in that.

[Wit]

Jan 23, 2014 20:07:50 GMT -8 Tim said:

For reals:
Gossip network could be cool however that would focus so much on the outside world. I get the feeling that some of the players who want to play Tori's want to focus more on Seattle then the outside. There are already so many delicious rumors going around.

My thought on this is something that can be potentially coming back to Seattle Basically the thing is it makes the words really hard to track back. And you can find out what is rumor around town.

to the comment about its relation to nos net, I really did mean it to be the other way around of nos net. Its about getting information out there. In perhaps a sneaky way, but out amongst the people. Rather then finding obscure information, you can suddenly make voices talk and hear things.

I could see this being able to be used on the mortal world to, if perhaps to slightly less effect.