Influence and Feeding Modifiers

[Kenneth Ashland]

*reads*

All of this is beginning to give me SimCity flashbacks.

[Joseph Mayek]

Hey, that's politics and the influence game for you. Also... it's not like you -have- to deal with Influence Centers to work with your influences.. Ya just won't get the bonuses from em..

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

First let me say that these explanations of the changes have been excellent. Drake you have a great talent for putting systems in to 'story terms' a difficult but truly nessecary skill for any Storyteller. I sense that you may make a great AST one day. /uses the force

That being said, while I both understand and thoroghly enjoy/approval stamp the in-game reasons and effects of the influence centers on feeding, it is the system I don't particularly aggree with for simplicity sake.

Right now the influences system is essentially a game within a game. It's like the card game in Final Fantasy (to use a geeky metaphor that I hope most people can relate to). If you play through whichever couple of final fantasy games have the card games in them and never play the card game, you can go through and enjoy the game all day long without ever touching the card game. If you don't play however, you miss out on some special items, a couple of minor side plots etc. No biggie, it's your choice whether to get involved or not.

Our influence 'game' is much the same. You can play vamp every week and never touch influences and have a grand ol time, but you may miss out on some things going on in the city, and you can't effectively 'play' on some level with those players that do spend time on influences. Again, you'll miss out on this and that, and be at a disadvantage in some cases, but you don't need to get involved unless you want your character to.

Previously there was one system for the role-playing aspect of vampire, and one system for influences.

Now essentially I feel that we are straying from that, and looking at a system within a system, within a system. A Roleplaying system, which has nested within it an influence system, which has nested within it an influence centers system. That seems to be getting a little granular.

This worries me a bit. Keep in mind that we also have a prestation system (status) that new players must learn to comprehend and use, and that's not even touching on the myriad of 'unwitten' In-Game and Out of Game laws and traditions (in the literal and shall we say, less literal sense) that exist here at Emerald Chronicles.

Again, keep in mind that I like this idea. I love (for the most part) it's explanation and tie-ins to feeding. The bonuses to feeding/negatives - psuedo trade-off to influences is in my opinion, presents an effective and really cool sense of the 'web' of kindred and mortal effects on a city. It makes the city a living breathing thing, and we Kindred are truly parasites upon it, preying and manipulating it in a noticable way.

But... system within system within system... It's a bit unwieldy. I think it would be wiser to tie the influence centers more closeley with the current influence system rather than creating an entirely seperate third ruleset devoted to it - and again, this does not mean that regardless of how the system may evolve that I don't applaud the work of the staff here - it's truly put a new and interesting twist on feeding and influences that is to be commended. Kevin and I bandied this about a lot (making domain /mean/ something) but never really came up with anything solid on just how to do that, and I think this is a great and very well thought out first step.

So on to 'business':

Now, if you think this (Influence Centers) should fall under our current influence system, that's nice, but it can't.

Here's where I disagree - sort of. The influence system as it is doesn't cover what you've done with the centers exactly, yes, but my suggestion is to add to/modify those a bit so they can fit rather than pull so much away from them. Integrate don't seperate, to sound like Rev. Jesse.

The closest thing to searching for the center would be Trace, but this is searching for the originator for a particular influence action; totally different from trying to find where the power center for that influence is located. We didn't have a system for that, since we didn't have Influence Centers.

I see your point, but my question is, why couldn't Trace, Watch and/or Follow be modded to include looking for influence centers? Or a combination of these being needed to pull off an Influence center trace. One action shouldn't cover massie actions like this, so why not create a new classification of action - called the Complex Influence Action. First, some background:

The current Trace verbiage says:

Trace - Use this to establish the identity of a particular influence you have come into contact with through one of the other influence actions. You can then find out to whom a specific influence belongs to.

"Gotcha. So, my old friend finds himself in the shipping buisiness, eh?"

And the curent Watch verbiage says:

[/i]Watch - Use this to watch for a specific influence action. If the number of traits you spend in the action exceeds any traits that a person performing that action has put into stealth you can then trace them. You can also watch for the following endeavors - Attack, Block, Growth, Follow, and Watch.

"There. Did you see that? Down by that warehouse. She's making her move. Better call the boss."[/i][/quote]

And then for Follow:

Follow - To use this action you must have performed a successful Trace upon a target. Follow will allow you to find out a specific person(s)'s influence actions for the month (or the two week period, what have you). If the number of traits you have spent equals or exceeds the number spent on a follow or watch activity then they are rendered unsuccessful.

"So he's trying to expand the cartels into the Eastside, huh? Dangerous business that. I bet our contact would be interested to know that."

Since these are all by themselves concerned with locating a single influence user or action, why not create more advanced requirements for complex actions such as diagramming/locating influence centers. Say if you were to perform multiple influence actions in a row, slightly modified to be more oriented towards the goal of Locating or Moving Influence Centers

My example is this:

Complex Influence Actions Certain uses of Influences go beyond the simple influence games that Kindred play with mortals' lives and begin to truly re-shape the world to a Kindred's whims. These actions, called Complex Influence Actions require more time to perform, and are the ultimate extension of the influence manuvering might a Kindred or Clan can exert over the domain. Technically, the three seperate actions required to perform a Complex Influence Action are not 'by the book' uses of these actions, but rather they generally represent a complex movement of influences designed to bring about their specific goals.

Trace Influence Cernter (Complex Influence action)

Trace, Watch, Follow

In order to locate an Influence hub or hotspot within the Emerald Domain, (known as an Influence Center), it takes more than just a simple knowledge of who's who in your Kindred's influence(s) of choice. Getting a feel for the thready heartbeat of the city itself is a complex and difficult affair that requires masterful maniplation of a Kindred's influence among the Mortal world.

System: Each use of the Trace/Watch/Follow Feat allows the Kindred to identify one possible Influence Site. This action has a 1 in 10 chance plus the number of influence traits of that specific Influence devoted to the task of being the actual center of the Influence within the domain. After each Trace, Watch, Follow, whch takes a total of three weeks to complete, if the Influence Center turns out not to be at that site, the odds of determining the actual site improve by 1/10th. Using a Complex Influence action takes up all uses of that particular influence during that period.

"Madame, as you requested, I have prepared a financial profile for the next district we discussed. It appears ripe for investment of our... resources. If you approve it, I'd like to move some of our people in for a first-hand look."

Move Influence Cernter (Complex Influence Action)

Attack, Use, Defend

Kindred who have mastered the art of manipulating the mortal realm can influence the city's mortal population on a grand scale, changing the very face of the Domain in which they hold territory. Using a combination of undermining and rebuilding the Influence Center that houses there spheres of control, a Kindred can actually move a major center of influence from one part of the city to another, bringing more and more power over the mortals within their direct control. Moves like this are risky however, as major shifts in economic and environmental factors are sure to go noticed by mortals and Kinderd alike, and may have far-reaching, and potentially unknown effects on the Domain.

System:Each use of the Attack/Use/Defend combination allows the kindred to attempt to move one known Influence Center. This action automatically alerts all other holders of the Influence, as it is a major shift in the domain. After each Attack/Use/Defend, whch takes a total of three weeks to complete, the Influence Center is considered to have been moved. Before a Move can be completed, the player must have succesfully identified and Influence center using the Locate Influence Center action. Using a Complex Influence action takes up all uses of that particular influence during that period. Move Influence Center cannot be Stealthed or Concealed. Moving an Influence Center costs one permenant point of Influence, which may be repurchased once the move is resolved. Moving an Influence Center into your character's Clan or Personal Domains Adds a +1 to all future Influence Actions of that type made by that Clan/Kindred and adds a -1 Feeding modifier to all Feeding Tests made by that Clan/Kindred.

"The new University has recieved it's accredation, and with the financial 'troubles' at he UW, it looks like their class lists are dwindling and ennrollment has taken a dive. I suppose that's what hapens when all of their most well-known professors come to work for the competition. Shall we tour your new campus my Master?"

So that's what I got to offer to this discussion - whatcha think? I think it meets both the needs of integration with the existing system and adding the distictive new stuff pretty well. Thoughts Gorf?

[Joseph Mayek]

First off, /uses anti-force.. or something to deflect Chris curse

Yes, while the Influence system is much like the card game in FF7. It's all about what floats your boat. It's not -my- particular forte.. But I dabble in it, just to see what it's all about, and what i can get it to do for me. And it's becoming even more of a need lately, due to ic things.

I find myself more inclined to dabble with it because, simply put, while you can play and not bother with it. It all really depends on character goals.

The system, before any add ons of late. I've found more complex than most any game I had played in before. They're intricacies that add on to the social aspect of the game.

The add on, and that is how i see it, as an add on, gives more to the social game of politics. Adding even more detail to the beautiful tapestry that is EC. Slowly evolving into a masterpiece.

I don't believe the intent of the Influence Centers was to stray from the present system in place, but to add depth and flavor to the overall way influences effect the domain. From Territory shifts, to diplomacy.

I will admit, that there is -alot- of information to learn for new players. The sheer mass of Vampire's (Or Werewolf or Mage for that matter) complications is enough to make any persons head spin. Trust me. From making the book and the stuff of Blood magic alone.... It's -alot-. There's not a single person, not even the creator's of the game, that knows every bit of it. Even if you had a photographic memory.

I don't believe abit more will make a huge difference.

But, I do agree that it could be abit unwieldy. But you have to keep in mind. Gorf put this together fairly swiftly from what I understand. There was alot to do for him to be able to 'release' for general consumption. Every 'patch' has it's glitches. Sometimes it makes gameplay abit twitchy, needs abit of tweaking before everything smoothes out.

But, the patch usually makes the game quite abit better. (Sure, there's exceptions, don't anyone start bringing up games or such, it's beside the point )

What I think the Influence Centers are meant to be, are a new "interface", a new option on the influence game.

I can't speak for either of you (Gorf or Chris)

But, I can make some assumptions from what I've read.

From the way I view it. Gorf is approaching it as "we can't do this with the present Influence system without completely -changing- it." Therefore, it can't be intregrated to the present system, only added to what we have. The problem with that, is it -can- be integrated, it just can't be integrated into the current options available.

Chris is approaching it as "Why are we making a completely new system when we have one that can accomodate these changes?" There's a system, why make a new one? The problem with that, is that it you have to make a new system to govern these possiblities. Then integration is able to occur.

Really, you're saying to do the exact thing that Gorf is doing, just using terms that are already present in the influence system, and classifying it down into more detailed terms of use, and fleshing out the new aspect of Influence Centers. You like the idea of adding this kind of detail to the influence system, as you suggested that you were trying to figure out with Kevin. Gorf's given direction and a way to do it.

My suggestion?

Why don't you and Gorf get together and work to bring this new and interesting option of Influences together in an easy to use system for the game we know you both love.

A few things I'll point out personally, that I disagree with, and believe there could be a better way.

I can understand that using a specfic influence to compile information to identify an Influence center would tie up that influence. But, I do not believe that it should tie up -all- your other influences as well. I think they -should- be able to use each influence to identify each individual Influence Center at the same time.

I know Gorf's concerned that if people are allowed to search out all the influences they have at the same time, it might be overpowered. But, remember, you're making these actual -rolls- they have to make. Not simply spending traits. And really, unless they're lucky,they're going to fail at least one of them, and have to start over. I think that balances things out.

Alternately, Chris' idea has merit. Instead of making a roll, keeping with the spending of Traits to identify the Centers. I would suggest upping the "amount needed" to 15, though. For example:
1-3 traits: 5 Sites
4-6 : 4 sites
7-9 : 3 sites
10-12 : 2 sites
13-15 : 1 site (the Center)

Also I believe they should be able to decide how -much- of their Influence they put into it. Ie. If I have Occult 4, i can choose to only put in 2 of my traits into finding the influence system. Of course, that means it's going to take me even longer. Sticking with what's been done so far. As I have 2 dp to start, then at diff 7, it takes me to 1, leaving 1 success to start. I'm not going to be making much leeway unless I'm a lucky mofo.

Then there are some issues I have with the examples Chris has given. With the options you've given, the way I look at it. With Attack/Use/Defend, in the manner of putting it to use to "move" and Influence center, it would involve weakening a center, while also strengthening the area you wish the center to move to.

But with this thought process. Why could you not instead of weakening one spot, simply make another "hotspot" of activity for a specific influence? Or removing a center all together?

It brings an interesting aspect to it, actually. But an aspect that could really get... well -complex-.

I believe this aspect of using traits in the system as 'spending traits' and not making rolls, could make things become quite hairy. Sure, there's the blood loss to balance a person from having -too- many hotspots in their domain. Otherwise, it could be very unbalancing to the game.

I also have an issue with it automatically alerting anyone. Indirect actions, maybe stealth, etc, should be able to cover such things unless someone is -really- paying attention. If you're not watching, you're not going to notice the shift. Then again, while you may stealth your actions, I can understand that if someone -is- watching. They would notice the change, and could then trace, etc etc..

Nor do I find the idea of spending a "permanent" trait of that particular influence. How is this explained? One of the puppets you use, or the groups you're a part of, go away? I don't see the point. Perhaps instead of taking that dot away, simply make it similar to the detriment a person receives on a succesful attack against them. Down one level effectively for one month. Still, I'm not sure of how to explain such a thing. Other than trying to prevent players from doing such a thing.

I suggest prevention of such things should fall into the hands of other players, using defend or the like.

Of course, Influence Centers do not -belong- to anyone. Where as, with the present influence system. You're not "fighting over influences". You're fighting with each -others- influences.

And if you're going to be attacking them and such. Do they have no Defense unless someone else in the influence is watching, and stops you? I don't believe that should be the case.. simply because I believe such hotspots should be resistant to change. Using the UW example. Even making the changes I suggested and such. There a reputation there you have to deal with. Something that's slow in changing. The U-district wouldn't lose it's college kids without a fight.

Maybe they have a set "defend" always up. Not too high, enough where someone could eventually bring a change around. But, if another player were defending along -with- the Influence center, it'd be damned near impossible without others helping in the "attack".

Anyways, I could go on. But really, I'm tired. I'd have responded to this earlier, but last few days have been busy.

But, as I said, I'm sure if you two put your heads together, all the kinks and details could be smoothed out swiftly.

*end rambling*

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Lots of good points, none of which I particularly disagree with. Good perspectives all around. Sure you might be able to stealth the manuver. If it were stealthed, then complex actions should take another week to complete, because of the addition of the action trait tho. Three weeks if you do it out in the open, four if you stealth?

And the lose an influence trait thing was to show how destroying and rebuilding an infastructure weakens it in the short term. You move a baseball team, they have what is called a 'building year'. You move a business, profits are absorbed by the costs involved a bit more during that period.

From a system perspective, it justifies the bonuses. We've always said, if it's on your sheet, you pay for it. You're essentially buying a trait of influence for your entire clan so there should be an XP cost in my opinion.

[Croneweth]

I realize that when this post is read alongside the monsters above, it will seem inconsequential. Especially since I have no backup points for what I am about to say. But...

You are objecting to systems within sytems within systems within systems within the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe in a VAMPIRE game? C'mon now. I think it's just perfect. Yes, it's more complicated, but that's the POINT. When you live forever, you need a lot to keep your mind off that fact. Vampires have created the penultimate entertainment (the Jyhad, and all it's layers), and the STs are trying to emulate that as much as possible. The players need only delve as deeply as they feel like, but no single aspect of the Jyhad is necessary. Perfect.

The only questions I have are the following:

What is the reasoning behind all of the Clan feeding modifiers?

And what are the modifier for those characters who fall outiside of Clan classification (Caitiff and Bloodlines and such)

[carlogiovanni]

werest said:

The only questions I have are the following:

What is the reasoning behind all of the Clan feeding modifiers?

And what are the modifier for those characters who fall outiside of Clan classification (Caitiff and Bloodlines and such)

Let me do a simple clarification that answers both those questions.

The feeding modifiers aren't strictly Clan only feeding modifiers. They are "Clan Domain" feeding modifiers.

So therefore it really depends on which domain you live in (unless you have personal domain)

[Kevin K]

I'd like to clarify the goals of the 'influence centers' idea. The purpose was to give characters and entire clans a reason to care about domain, and to remind players that their characters should be spending the vast majority of their time within their own clan's domain (*).

It's true that this approach also ties nightly roleplay closer to the influence system, but that was more of a bonus than the overall goal.

-Kevin

(*) If you're *not* spending your time in your domain, you need to let your STs know. Other clans have a chance at catching you.

[Lady Daniels]

For the sake of simplicity, I am in opposition of further complicating the game's "systems".

As well, I cannot support the rate at which all these rules are changing. I think I've finally grasped the new contacts "system", only to be told that not only do I have a feeding modifer that negatively impacts my entire Clan, but there is also a "new" Influences system that also employs Influence "centers", further complicating what was already challenging to some of the players. My ADHD has about gone haywire.

If you make a game too difficult to learn, and too complicated with rules here and there and where you can hang your hat; there is risk if discourging new players to come back a second or third time, and totally confusing vested players who are not as readily versed in the finer points of Influences or similar.

E is the first character I've played in a long time that had direct involvement in the Influence jungle. The other Influences system I knew was not nearly as complicated as this, and I am becoming a little frustrated because of my attempts to learn the Influences system in EC, just got shot to shit. I feel like I have to learn it all over again, and I've played E for almost a year; with the expectation of learning the Influences as outlined during Chris' tenure - it's part of why I chose Ventrue. I got the social aspect done, I think; and I had aimed to learn other aspects of the game with which I'm not as familiar.

I agree that vampires have a lot to juggle every night, even if they stay in their haven from dusk to dawn. The society of Vampire as outlined by WW is rather involved, and that does make sense. That's all well and good, but I am thinking, that ideal needs to be balanced against the human factor of not everyone knowing all the details of these systems. Some of us don't have as much aptitude in learning new stuff quickly.

Roney can oversee a six person combat in ten minutes. He can quote the standards for weapons and who can get them, without having to check the book again. He has a stellar affinity for such things, and he's second only to BJ in that regard, so far as I know.

Rick's knowledge covers almost all clans and all sects, I believe he also owns one copy of every book associating with Vampire, being a ST himself. He knows merits and flaws off the top of his head and their cost.

I have no damned idea how a person can do that with Vampire. I don't think I'll ever be able to do it myself.

I dunno. I consider myself an educated person, and I'd like to think that my play is good enough to be in EC. There's been a lot of back and forth on this, and people have explained it. I think Drake did a kickass job of trying to explicate it further to those of us who are just lost; and I may even print those bad boys and keep them in my portfolio; but because I have a hunch I'm really going to need them.

I kind of feel bad to ask this, for having played Vampire as long as I have; but in a way I feel like I owe it to the game because of what I do in it. So: I need help learning all this new shit, and well; I ain't too proud to beg.

WTB [Wanting to Borrow/Buy]: A person willing to withstand my potentially incessant questions, requests for clarification, and the "Hmph!" that I'll probably be doing a lot; and tutor me in these new things, so I know what the hell I'm doing.

[Joseph Mayek]

I'd be willing to give it a shot at helping you out. I know how ADHD can be. And incessant questions and clarification only helps set it in the mind of the helper, too, and of aspects not thought of prior But I'd might suggest waiting until the kinks are worked out in further detail.

[carlogiovanni]

I as well will be more than willing to help learn you this system. When my schedule starts to work out (which is potentially in a few weeks) I will begin showing up to game earlier (around 8-8:30ish) so if ANYONE wants to come by and chat about the system and how it works and all that jazz I will be more than willing. I will make an announcement at game letting everyone know when I'll be able to do this.

And not just before game either, if you ever see me just sitting around with no one to talk to, by all means come sit with me and give me your questions so that I can answer them or write them down so that I can get other STs to answer them at the meetings.

Any question at all. Never think your questions are "stupid" or anything like that. Everyone should have fun at game and knowing how everything works is one of the ways of making sure that happens.

[Gorf]

Chris, Phil, Drake... I think you've all got really good suggestions and a fairly good grasp of what the game is Influence-wise as it stands prior to the introduction of the Influence Centers. Let me be the first to admit that the system itself was rushed prematurely, but that should have been evident from Adam giving me that 2 week deadline. I was also working on finishing up my Intensive Spanish course at the same time, not an easy task with 4 hours of in class time 4 days per week with 4-6 hours of homework each night.

That being said, I would like to sit down with you three to talk about the Influence Center system. It was talked about a bit at the last ST meeting, but we left some things open which I would like to discuss with the three of you, since you all had excellent suggestions to improve/simplify/clarify the system.

Feel free to email me and hopefully we can arrange some time to get together to work the kinks out. I don't think there's a problem with what we have currently in place, so it will stand as is unless we think of future clarifications, but the concept of attacking/moving/searching-out Centers will be put on hold, pending our discussion.

[Webmonkey]

Okay, so after a long sit down and brainstorming session with Gorf, Drake and myself, we've finally hammered out the Influence Centers a bit.

One general change I'd like to point out because it's easy to miss in the changes is Time:

In the past the influence person ran influences loosley based around: the number of traits you use equals the number of weeks it takes to get the effect - (just like it takes three weeks to learn the third level of a discipline it took three weeks to grow to the third level of an influence, etc...) The rules said action times were 'at the storyteller's discretion', and now they've been changed to indicate that it takes 1 week per level of the action 'officially'.

Earlier the one week per level of action 'rule' sorta fell out of use because people would do nothing with influences for months and then do a moderate action and the paperwork person would sorta be like: "well since you haven't come to me in weeks you could have asked for this weeks ago, so fine it happens now." Which is fine, but eventually things just degraded into all influence actions being insta-action, which is not so fine.

With the advent of influence centers, timing is going to be more important, so the rule has been updated. The Paperwork person still has some discretionary power there, but expect things to take the regular amount of time from now on if you haven't been.

Complex Influence actions are listed on the Rules>Influences page at the bottom. Note that they all require triple actions. This means they will take a minimum of three weeks a piece and you need a minimum of three in that Influence if you want to do an Influence Center Search or Move.

I think they are pretty fair and make sense.

You can search for multiple influence centers simultaneously.

If you move an Influence center into your clan's domain, they all get a +1 to their Influence use and a -1 to their Feeding modifier. (Which can be bought off with Herd easily or hey, while we're on the subject, the Health Influence)

If you have personal domain as well as Clan domain, you can choose where to base your feeding tests or influence uses out of.

Check 'em out!

www.emeraldcitychronicles.com/68201/52065.html

[Gorf]

Thanks a bunch for putting all that up Chris. Both yourself and Drake were very helpful in hammering out a final system for this.

I just have one correction for something you mentioned that will also have to be corrected on the ECC site: If you have an Influence Center in a personal domain, it means that you get the bonus of +1 to your influence, but not the negative on feeding. This does NOT mean that you get to ignore the Clan modifier, though. If your clan gets a -1, then you also get a -1, where you'd normally get a -2 for having the Influence Center in your domain, while the rest of the clan can't use that +1 to influence unless you let them. This is to support the value of personal domain.

[Daddy]

I really want to like influence. I'm trying, but I feel constantly demotived whenever I try to get into it.

I have some questions on the systems, especially the time thing, but I'd really like to vent a bit first. Feel free to skip ahead if you like.

I've been trying to get into influence since Chris made influence into a viable "game within the game", rather than the loosely run, often ignored tool it used to be. I've read over the influence pages on the website several times. And I just can't seem to get a handle on how any of the influence actions actually work. Keep in mind that I have a grasp of rules somewhere in the same calibre of BJ or Broney, so I find not getting influence to be quite disorienting.

I've probably spent around 10 hours of game time standing around waiting to get influence done. I don't understand it well enough to mail in my actions, and I've never dependably gotten email back to tell me if my actions have succeeded, causing me to have to wait in line anyway. And every time I've tried to get a better handle on it from the paperwork ST, I've only learned that the person running influence and the one who wrote it don't seem to be on the same page.

I have to stop a moment and complement the paperwork STs on the work they do. It's a thankless, meticulous job that people volunteer to do for a reason that I am not enlightened enough to understand. They've saved the whole game from having to track their own exp, which was a huge hastle, and I thank them.

Anyway, I really believe in influence as a game element. But it's a constant frustration for me. I'm puting my exp on the line buying traits I can loose, and sacrificing my game time to try to implement things or find out what I've done. And a lot of days it doesn't seem worth it. But I keep at it in the hopes of being able to play someone who can crush an enemy with a phone call rather than a fist.

That being said, I'll move on to the thing that's really confusing me about influence now. Time.

In some ways I can see the wisdom in the "One week per level used" rule. If you want to deport your rival to Mexico, it could take five weeks for all the paperwork to go through. Considering how likely the rival is to be killed by Sabbat on arrival, I think it's warrented. I'll sum up this idea in a sentence: Time affecting proactive influence actions makes sense.

On the other hand, you might want to kill a news story that threatens the masquerade. Killing a story is media 3. So you take a level 3 action, wait through three weeks of shadowy back alley dealings, and get the good news that you stopped that story three weeks ago. Or that it aired, but they're doing their best to discredit it. I'm not sure which. Either way, our seneschal is likely to exile you from the city if she had to wait 7 days for results anyway. So, in a sentence: Time affecting reactive influence actions doesn't make sense.

I'm also confused how this affects attacks and defense. If you attack at level 5 to crush the influence of a guy who's growing, can he just grow for the next five weeks, get up to level 3, then be knocked down to two by the attack? Could he keep growing and then defend on the last week? Would he have to defend three weeks before the attack strikes to have his defenses in order? And if you're doing a level 5 attack, you won't have much left to stealth with unless another influence applies. If he watches for attacks the first week, does he have a month to garner support from other kindred in court to add to his defense?

My other questions are about complex actions. A complex action takes three weeks, no matter how many traits you spend searching, unless you stealth or boost it. How is time affected by stealth or boost? If you put three media into influence center trace, and 2 into stealthing it, will it take longer than three weeks? If an ally boosts your search, will it take less time?

It takes all your actions in a catagory to search, even if you don't search with all. So if you have 5, and you use 3 to search, you have to spend the rest to modify the search or not use them, right?

It's hard to watch a complex action. Is it similarly hard to trace or follow such an action?

Ok, so that's it, except I just noticed something in Gorf's last post I hadn't noticed before. I thought all the existing feeding modifiers were based on existing influence centers. Are there territory based mods that have nothing to do with influence centers? Is it clan based?

[Gorf]

Are there territory based mods that have nothing to do with influence centers? Is it clan based?

To answer these in order: No. Technically, yes.

Now let me explain; when I said clan modifier, it is because domains are clan-affiliated. The domains that contain influence centers have the negative feeding modifiers. Therefore, since domains are "clan-based", as you put it, yes the feeding mods are clan-based.

[Webmonkey]

Okay, Adam, you bring up some awesome points about influences, and I'm happy to say that most of these I think are explainable.

Fist things first, why there is an influence system, in a non 'because they are good' way:

1. To show the delicate web of control kindred have over the blah blah blah world of inky blackness, blah blah blah, intrigue - you obvously know this one.

2. To give players an alternative to using combat to resolve their vampire-y disputes. Because mass combats are teh gay, and hundred year old vamps should know beter than to just throw down whenever they have a dispute. I'm sure you're clear on that too, just sayin'.

3. To make contested mid-week actions doable. Some players want to be able to do things with their characters to screw other characters during the periods that come outside of the four hours a week they want to spend role playing. An ST does not want to run mid-week scenes where people walk around making manipulation+finance tests to take over the 4th national bank of Squim times 50+ players each week. So the influence system lets a player say, I have Finance of X, that means I can use them to nuke Grady Gangrel's influence X - I do so. The ST can then say: "Ok, you do have more traits on the Attack then they have on Defend. They lose, you win."

Done. No tests. The ST does not haveto figure out how to webgam your mitts into a RPS online chat so you can duke it out or stop playing their videogame mid-week and go to your house for punch and pie on a wednesday night when they have work in the morning to resolve your test. If you have X, you get X. Period. You come up with a short 'story' "I go to the bank and transfer funds from Grady Gangrel's accounts to my accounts, etc, etc." and you are golden.

This does not mean you can't choose to use manip+finance or make extended tests to assert rule over 4th Bank of Sequim's financial empire, but if you do, you have to wait your turn at game.

So, with that said, the comment you made about not being sure if you want to do things over email is sad. Because that's what Influences are about (partly). You can do stuff over the week. There is a clear list of what you can do with each level of influence, what beats what, and how long it takes to do stuff.

Now on to your questions about time. I agree that taking three weeks to get rid of a media story is lame. Generally that does not fall into the catagory of mid-week actions obviously, that's more like - oh my god, there is a news chopper filming my clanmate feeding *right now* and I want to make sure that doesn't get on the news.

Normally what has been ruled is - yes, you can use the influence *right now* but the level that it takes to do whatever you want to do equals the number of weeks that influence is tapped out. Your minions tell you they are still cleaning up that last mess and can't find the time/push the buttons/bribe the whozit until the last thing 'blows over'.

And there may be more but I'm late back from lunch. May write more.

[Daddy]

Ok, I'll address Gorf first here. Let me make sure I understand. The current feeding mods are based on influence centers. They are not based on clan traits. So Malkavians have a -1 because Edmonds has centers, not because crazy people find it harder to feed, and not because Edmonds is harder to feed in regardless of centers. If the Malkavians pooled their influence and moved all the influence centers out of Edmonds, they would get a bonus, right?

And so you say that the mods are clan based because, in theory, clans are only feeding in their territory, and the territory is affected by influence centers.

And personal domain only affects feeding mods if the center is in personal domain? So if Edmonds is at -1, and Daddy moves a center into his domain, he'll be at -1 and everyone else will be at -2? And if Daddy moved a center in Edmonds into his domain, then others would still have -1, but he'd have -0. I had originally understood that personal domain negated all negative mods for the area for those who feed in that domain.

Ok, so on to Chris's contribution. I agree that my reluctance to use influence is sad. But I'm not the only one. I've spoken with other players who keep influences for their characters, but only use them for "Holy Crap, that guy is videotaping..." etc actions. I've always found influences difficult to use, I think partly because we keep our paperwork ST so busy. I think when you have a well developed influence system, as we do, you need a seperate ST to keep up with it all. I don't have one to offer, but I think it would be valuable to have.

Another reason I find it difficult is that the uses of influence are not straight forward. The influence grid is easy. It's great. I can easily find out how to affect IC play by getting cash, or sending police after someone, or having lackeys research lore and rituals. What I don't get is how influence affects influence.

I understand grow. I think I understand trace, it's the only one I've actually used in the last 18 months. But I don't know in what ways it's different from watch or follow. Or how those interact with stealth and conceal. I mean, I kind of know. But I don't feel confidant about it. It's like when I was a kid and I thought rock beat paper because rocks are used as paper weights. I know what a rock is, but I don't know how it works in the context of the game. I often confuse combine and boost. And then there's block.

I think I hit it on the head when I said that I'm not confidant. On some level, I know how it works. The descriptions and the color text highlight how each works individually, but I could really use an example of them interacting. Over the course of several weeks. A written up example could work, but I think it could be confusing to read.

Maybe we could do a workshop? Something where several players get together and each is given a set of influences for the example, and we all speak out load about what we are doing so we can get a feel for how it all works before we jump in blind. We'd need a Ref to tell us if we're fucking it up, of course. Once I have a grasp for the system, I'd be happy to Ref later workshops. I'll be around before game, since Sara's in Mage, so people could show up early and practice influence.

So you say that I could do manip+finance to take over a bank? What happens then? Do I get Finance influence 3 or 4 for free? Do I get to buy Finance influence 3 or 4 immediately without growing? Do I just get something I can brag about that has no in-game affect? Do I get a bank vault for a haven? I thought any time you have any control over the outside world, it's because you've bought that control with exp invested in backgrounds.

And for the time thing, let's say I have finance influence 5. I don't want noobie neonates to get a hold on finance, so I do a 1 level watch for growth actions. I also want to place a bolt-hole haven in a coffee shop my character likes, so I use a level 2 use action to buy the place. I don't want others knowing that I've bought the shop, so I put a level 2 stealth on the purchase. How does the time work out?

[carlogiovanni]

daddy said:

And for the time thing, let's say I have finance influence 5. I don't want noobie neonates to get a hold on finance, so I do a 1 level watch for growth actions. I also want to place a bolt-hole haven in a coffee shop my character likes, so I use a level 2 use action to buy the place. I don't want others knowing that I've bought the shop, so I put a level 2 stealth on the purchase. How does the time work out?

Ok (I've lost this post three times now) I can explain something on the times.

1. Your Watch action would take one week, then you would recieve a number (not a list) of individuals using the Finance Growth Action. Then you can Trace one of those actions. If the number of points you put toward your Trace action exceeds the number of points they put into Conceal, then you get a name of the individual using the influence, which may or may not be the actual person, depending on whether or not they use an Indirect action or a Direct Action.

2. Your 2 point Use action to buy the coffee shop and the 2 point Steath action to hide the purchase adds up to a 4 point endeavor, this means that you have tied up 4 points of your Finance Influence for four weeks. Though I will inform you after the first two weeks whether you have accomplished the purchase of the coffee shop.

I hope that answers that question.

And since I'm new, you other STs may correct me if I am wrong. ;D

I am very interested in developing a workshop on Influences, I think it would be fun to play a sorta mini-game, using fake influences. If anyone wants to help me plan this I have some ideas about it too.

[Webmonkey]

That sounds awesome. I'd be happy to help with an Influence workshop. Maybe a few hours before game one Saturday?