Status in Play

[Alex Rourke]

OK, so we've had these huge discussions about Status, Influence, Feeding Modifiers and Mass combat. So I'm going to ask a question about general Role Playing in connection to Status.

Honestly guys, what's the point of us having a Status system when no one plays it? I mean, characters grant respect to court members and Primogen, but then you hit the floor with Joe vampire.

Let's say Billy Brujah has Status 2, and Tommy Tremere has Status 4. Billy Brujah can still tell Tommy Tremere "Screw you!" and get away with it with no reprecussions for his disrespect.

Ok, so on the street that's one thing, but what about in Elysium where status means everything. The higher your status, the more favorable your treatment. If you've got Status 5, and Joe vampire's got Status 2, then chances are, Joe's going to be waiting for a few hours to chat with Mr. Big while you get the privilage of walking right up to him.

So here's my big question, why aren't we handling status in the terms of RP? I mean seriously, the system and background exist to add a social dynamic to the world of vampires in a sense of Role Playing.

As I see it, Status isn't just what gets you a spot on the upper deck, it doesn't just get you a meeting with the Prince before Joe vampire. It also let's you get away with snubbing certain vampires who've irritated you, it allows you to boss the young'ins around and makes you look better in the eyes of other vampires.

So awesome RP status digs: The Trial of Scion. Status was loaned out the arse to see whose word weighed more than the others.

Ricohardt going to see Senechal Mathias. Mathias inquired "And whose support do you have in this endeavor?"

If I'd had a bunch of Status 2 Neonates loaning me status, the Seneschal would have said "Piss off, you're waisting my time."

But as it stood, I had a bunch of Status 3's 4's and 5's loaning me Status so the Seneschal says "Step into my office, let's talk..."

The status of an individual, and their amount has some serious weight (btw, that was awesome Chris)

Respect shouldn't just be handled on a who can kick whose ass basis, but look at the deeds that other Kindred have done for the Camarilla in the past. I look at the Status of people like Alixandra, Morris Tobias, Charissma Starr, Jean Lionel, Scion and IC, unless I'm playing a loud mouthed Anarch, I'm not about to talk down or back to them because there are horrible reprecussions for those things that include but are by no means limited to: Public humiliation, loss of status or position, potential beatings at the hands of angry elders.

What's more, each member of a clan has status, that status is pooled together and totaled as the clan's status within the domain. Clans with higher status get first picks for things like Domain, they get more weight with the Prince and/or seneschal etc. IF a neonate is going around, making a bad name for himself and lowering his own status, by default he's lowering his clan's status, which can't please his elders.

These are just some things to think on, and maybe we'll see some new snobbish attitudes to some of our city's Kindred.

Just my .02

[Kenneth Ashland]

I'll drop my thoughts on this, cuz it's been a concern of mine, personally, both IC and OOC for quite a while.

Playing Kenneth, I have to remember that he is very young, and still walking around in rather big shoes. He has spurts of "oh, yeah, I should've said..." when it comes to status and position, but if he was always on the ball, he'd be an Elder.

He's chewed out more than one person for snapping at another Clan's Primogen, the Seneschal and such-like, but mid-ranged, non-positioned characters/situations can be tougher OOC.

As well as I can remember character names, remembering whether Billy Brujah has Status 4 or Status 5 when compared to Tommy Tremere is hard to do on the fly.

I tried putting the task to my Lesser Harpies OOC a while back, to try and come up with more "tangible" benefits of status, ala the Upper Deck, to give it more obvious meaning, but nothing came of it.

Another problem is that, unless you're publicly positioned, or carry around a status print-out, a lot of players don't know off-hand whom they "can" and "can't" talk down to, or should show respect to. With so many people in the game, with varying identities and backgrounds, it's not always clear.

But then, that's the Harpy's job, right? But except for the rare case where I witness something obviously improper, rare is the time that anyone comes and tells me/complains of a misstep.

Trust me, if Alex Rourke came to Kenneth and said "Mr. Neo Nate just told me to screw off!" I'd fall on him like a ton of bricks. But...it doesn't happen that often.

So, my two suggestions to your wondering "what's the point of Status if no one respects it?":

1) Find another tangible benefit for it

2) Utilize the Harpy more often, either to punish, or find out who not to be, or who you can be, a jerk to.

[Alex Rourke]

MORE LESSER HARPIES!

[Shakir Movre']

Being there, doing that, for the most part.

Why aren't you???

[Alex Rourke]

though in all sincerety, I can see where you're coming from, I mean, as Harpy, I see Kenneth moving around, gathering info etc. I see his lesser harpies doing the same thing. I'd like to have a chat, OOC with the lesser harpies about some examples I've found in the Guide to the Camarilla and the Main Vampire book (and I can site one really cool example from our game, though it wasn't with a Harpy but a Prince) of harpies (yes plural) coming down like a ton of bricks on some hapless soul who said the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's similar to the Social Circle in most cases, but some times a bit more brutal. *laughs evily*

[Alex Rourke]

less and head Harpy

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Kevin really should be around for this discussion - I dunno what his sitch is, travelling and such, but he had some ideas about further stratifying the Elysium, making more 'zones' than just the upper deck. There was also the thought given about time limits on speaking based on status, and a required status level for speaking directly with certain members of the inner court based on status. (Imagine if a simply Acnowledged could only speak to the Sherriff's deputy without the backing of another Kindred, but any with at least two traits could seek justice immediately.)

These are all thoughts we discussed about how to make status more meaningful/evil.

I should note that during the court meeting, Primogen/etc were called in order of their status which is one common use of it.

The other thing is, Status is a weapon in vamp society that not all wield in the same way. Scion is not as likely to ream some neonate about breaking protocall as is Lady Daniels - he's a Gangrel, she's a Ventrue, they have different philosophies about higherarchies - But both will treat those of higher standing with respect.

I'm not saying Status might not be highlighted more, just throwing out a picture of what gets forgotten easily because we are so used to it.

[Chilli]

I say we kill 'em all... Let Ashland sort 'em out.

[Lady Daniels]

This is why people are barred from addressing the Seneschal directly unless they have an appointment with her or are spoken for by their primogen. Court members are exempt so long as they haven't pissed her off. People who interrupt her while she's speaking to someone else [high status or low], gets to speak to the Harpy.

This is why I enforce the recognition of standing, and why I try to not use the default term of a status moniker, which is something most of us use by rote as it just damned easier, heh. But for instance, during a communique E had with Scion, she addressed him by his recognition instead of his name; using that moniker in language. It truly accents that person being recognized with that moniker. Example for Scion:

"With such a fearsome gentlemen as one of Our Stategists, I need not fear for the victory of our city."

Example for Victor, by description:

"When a love-struck gentleman attempts to prove his prowess by going into battle, be it for damsel or domain; it must be known that such distraction can be lethal."

Now granted, some monikers simply don't mesh well when used in language; though that'd be some interesting conversations if anyone tried. =D

Ross and I both looked into the idea of assigning titles to higher standing people, as they've obviously earned the courtesy. This is why E is referred to as "Her Grace", why she addresses him as "His Highness"; and why she addressed Archon Logan as exactly that. I'd say 5+ to reduce having to say Sir or Madam all the damned time, as that can be annoying after a while. Actual titles can be created, as we've already done so.

With regards to handling social differences in one's own way, I shall demonstrate the next time E is bothered by someone.

[Deleted]

wo0ot I wanna be a lesser harpy!

funny enough I'm serious.

[Joseph Mayek]

While I think there might be a few ways to highlight status advantages.. it sounds like yer just not putting it to good use, rick I mean, It's all in an individual's reaction as to how they act towards disrespect from lower standing kindred. Depending on who it is, how you're feeling at the moment, and how it could effect things politically. Every time some low status person talks back to someone, doesn't mean they get the smack down. Depends on if it's witnessed by the harpy, or whether the person offended feels like lodging a complain to the Harpy, for whatever reasons.

Point is... It's there. Use it. Just keep in mind that someone might well use it on -you- as well.

[Lily Esther Allen]

palevalkyrie said:

This is why people are barred from addressing the Seneschal directly unless they have an appointment with her or are spoken for by their primogen.

gee even Maggie understands this.

she waits off the upper deck until bidden to speak.

heaven help Maggie if its an emergency, she won't know what to do...

except maybe the pottie dance

[O'Keefe]

The thing that I have noticed is that the harpy doesnt realy bring up peoples Status much. That is something I would like to see.

[Alex Rourke]

see, my issue is, at this point, not with the Use of Status, but with the way it's so frequently ignored. Status 3 indicates a Kindred who's been around a while or done some good for their domain, then you hit 4, 5 and 6 and these are Kindred who have been heard of around the nation, if not the world.

I mean, yeah we can run and tell the Harpy that some neonate is out of line, that doesn't mean that the Harpy's going to do anything about it. Not only that, like Chris said, Status is a weapon, it can both help or hinder a Kindred's political movements and I think people fail to realize that before making their actions and/or comment (one example is Harvey's comment about Boston Tremere and Dogs coming back to haunt him)

[Joseph Mayek]

That's the very example I was going to use of the Harpy doing exactly what you're saying. And Joseph using it in just that way. As for characters -failing- to realize it. Well, that's what whelps do They think, yeah yeah, Mr. so and so thinks he's so important. Course, then they end up saying such things, or insulting, or doing something out loud, like interupting the Senechal. The difference between the "young" and the "old". Guile.
And as for -players- not knowing any better... Well, I suggest you not play beyond your means. If you're going to play an older kindred. You would damn well know better, and you'd better have a dot or so of Etiquette or Subterfuge to back it up.
Hell, even in games where the Social aspect of the game wasn't as big as it is in EC, I keep it in mind, if the character would know or care about kindred society's rules and traditions. Hell, even more so.. in those games, where combat happened much more often, insults and such resulted in an ass kicking or death. Not a slap on the wrist and dirtying your 'Good standing'.
And really, the best way to see how much esteem a city holds towards prestige is to test what's acceptable, and what's not. Course, if you play someone like I'm playing, you expect the worst, and then test it, find the limits.
Maybe what I'm saying.. is perhaps you shouldn't be bringing up Status not playing as big a role as you'd like OOC. Maybe you should bring it up IC to people who govern and enforce such things... and roleplay out making it more important. Because it's not a matter of system, or the like. I think the matter is, as you said, Status -in play-, and maybe you should play it out?

[Kenneth Ashland]

I won't deny that I don't highlight character status as much as I tried to at the start of the job.

But after months of seeing how few people (characters or players, whichever) really care who's important or not, it often feels like an exercise in futility.

There are rare exceptions: The Mayek/Ganit Dog thing; Anton Lefrey at the Ventrue Gala; Thanatos vs. TlaWaYa, and a few others.

But again, those tend to be exceptions to the rule, and usually you'll see the recently embarassed character getting a sit-down with the Sheriff 10 minutes later anyway...

I mean, by all rights, when the Seneschal enters the room, people should part like the Red Sea, or at least bow. But... *shrug*

I will say that this convo is giving me hope that, as a group, we can do our individual parts to make the social flux IC as important an aspect as it should be; I'm already coming up with plans as to what to do to make "punishment" a more interactive affair...

Is there some unobtrusive way we can notify to other players a sign of a character's personal standing? Maybe not a 3x5 pinned to your suit; my first thought was getting a few sheets of those little hole-punch reinforcement stickers: you apply as many "pips" as you have standing, or something like that.

[Lady Daniels]

Not to shoot you down, but I doubt I will need it - to most other people in the city, E's status is "Yes".

This is fine with me, as even those little markers might disrupt the harmony of my attire. -mock snootiness and other Ventrue raving bitch-like stuff-

Well, anyway, using like silver or gold pins or something could compliment Ross' idea while maintaining the Toreador sense of style.

People acknowledging the Seneschal's arrival: I've been trying to play up the fact that E is pretty much ignored by some, and that there's been a few instances that were minor, but only underlined the fact that E is somewhat fed up with the lack of courtesy due station. And well, she's displeased about this. I tried to mark that in the court meeting, but as a player, I've endeavored to not get heavy handed; as it can be easy to do and not E's way.

[Not to say that I'm always bitchy, or that I'm always snooty. So shut up, Adam. =D]

[Ivaret]

A part of the problem is simply occly not knowing who's got what status. And, I can tell I'm not the only one, hence the cut out. star idea.

[Joseph Mayek]

Well, yer character might not have those kind of things memorized. heck, the Harpy has a notebook to remember such things
You -can- make a test to gauge someone's status.. I -know- I saw that somewhere.. I think it's like Perception + Camarilla Lore. But for the life of me I can't recall where on the ECC Status page it's at.

What i mean, is OOCly, if ya don't know.. well, you can make a test to know ICly, or talk with the Harpy.

Edit: Found it, in Rules>Status (obviously), under "Posting Status" and "Harpynet Status" End of the first Paragraph. And it's Perception + Politics, I see.

[Steve]

I am going to agree with the 'Politics' test for a number of reasons. And that number, I believe, is two.

One, it worked in MET, so why the hell not here?

Two, one doesn't need to know how the Camarilla works to see how the pecking order works. Likewise, knowing the big players in the Camarilla doesn't do much good without an equally impressive understanding of Political maneuverings.