Demons Discussion Thread

[Galen]

Hi everyone,

So I am currently adding some stuff for dealing with demons in the house rules section that will be voted on in a month and are up right now for player discussion and review. I would like to ask that any questions be posted here in regards to that so that I can answer them in between posting stuffs. Staff is happy to answer any questions people might have regarding this.

-AST Galen

[Ross]

Does the possibility exist that, save for those PCs that are actively seeking demonic contact (which should be quite a quest with a definitively negative outcome) we can just write the Demons out of the story?

We obviously have more than enough supernatural conflict available among the PCs alone. Could the staff instead focus on making the mortal world - and the consequences of operating as a Vampire within it - the primary antagonist?

I don't at all understand why an entirely different game and sphere is being merged into Vampire.

-Ross

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

This isn't the only case of true cross sphere.

The Werewolves that we've been seeing lately are run from their source material, as well as Wraiths. KotE are being ran by their source material as well. This is just the latest sphere on the list.

The troubling part of Demon: The Fallen cross sphere-ing, however, is that it clearly states on page 60 of their Companion guide that Vampires cannot benefit from Pacts. So.... these demons floating around shouldn't be able to grant dark thaum woojee at all.

As a guy playing a PC that sorta hates infernalism, I appreciate having a system to combat it, but the general prevalence of demons right now is troubling.

[Oberon Gault]

While I'm all for system to address cross-sphere inconsistencies, I'm less of a fan of hand-waving away plot that people don't like (Again, not that I'm a fan of Demon being run contrary to D:tF source material).

Plot should be addressed through story, not "I don't like it." Canon/plot approach aside for the Assamite crew, they were doing things right in the "We don't like infernalism, so lets go on a fanatic crusade against it" vein.

Giving the cross sphere system on how to correctly address it with finality should further allow that to occur, for better or worse, by the players who choose to interact in any capacity with it.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

I tend to take my ooc annoyances with system to IC fixes. I hate demons in a vampire game, ergo, I'll just kill em. Among other things.

[Galen]

Man, you guys are fast...

I'll be able to make responses as soon as I'm done posting all the things. Sorry for the delay.

[Styx]

Sept 12, 2013 13:40:25 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

I tend to take my ooc annoyances with system to IC fixes. I hate demons in a vampire game, ergo, I'll just kill em. Among other things.

and yet I, and the people who enjoyed Tiberius (and yes there was more than 3 ;p ) wouldn't have had the fun experiences with his plot that we did if the only response was "we don't like this in our Vampire game, lets kill it" for which i can only say that i hope it wasn't the primary motivation behind the attempts on Tiberius' life. That aside, if you remove something that is a fairly significant theme in the canon wod (even in Vampire) at what point do you stop? Some people are annoyed that paths other than humanity are even allowed in games, but removing them would be a disservice .. non standard clans are yet another one that has been a problem for some in the past, but keeping the Vampire game to a strict 7 camm clans would have removed any if the fun lots that have ever happened with the gios, setites, Assamites, etc..

I think putting it up to a short playtest and player vote is the best way to decide this...

[Galen]

Okay, the things are posted, sorry again for the delay.

Before I answer the listed concerns above, I would like to state the following. These systems are up for discussion purposes and to be used on a temporary basis for playtesting methods for one months time. If at the end of that month, players vote to have them removed, we will do so. Players need tools, that is our goal with these.

Ross - In regards to your questions this staff has talked long and hard about this very thing. Some on our staff want the demon stuff to go away, some want it to stay, but what we can all agree on is that we want it to be in the players hands to do so. What we have posted is our attempt to give the players the tools they need to define their own story and deal with the stories that are currently in play at this time. Most of the demon bits that are running around at game were put in place by other players at one time or another without any system to back them. We want to make a system available for all players to handle these issues, either to create their own story using them if that is their desire or to get rid of them.

Rob - Your reference to the page in the book 'Demon the Fallen: Demon Storyteller's Companion' is a good one and one that was taken into consideration. At the end of the day though we had to look at the source of that book in particular and the stories that had been developed in game already. That particular book is for a Demon the Fallen game that has some Vampire cross-sphere antagonists added in on the basis of "Because of their undead nature, vampires cannot benefit from pacts of Faith..." Is this to say that Vampires lack faith, or because they are static beings, or for some other arbitrary reason. If this was a Demon the Fallen game I would absolutely agree with you. In this particular regard, keeping in mind the concept of infernalism in Vampire and previous staffs rulings on the issue, we believe it is a possibility to form pacts with Kindred. That said, we believe it should be difficult, dangerous, and otherwise likely to eventually end in character death (See Harkness... ).

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

Sept 12, 2013 14:21:07 GMT -8 Styx said:

Sept 12, 2013 13:40:25 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

I tend to take my ooc annoyances with system to IC fixes. I hate demons in a vampire game, ergo, I'll just kill em. Among other things.

and yet I, and the people who enjoyed Tiberius (and yes there was more than 3 ;p ) wouldn't have had the fun experiences with his plot that we did if the only response was "we don't like this in our Vampire game, lets kill it" for which i can only say that i hope it wasn't the primary motivation behind the attempts on Tiberius' life. That aside, if you remove something that is a fairly significant theme in the canon wod (even in Vampire) at what point do you stop? Some people are annoyed that paths other than humanity are even allowed in games, but removing them would be a disservice .. non standard clans are yet another one that has been a problem for some in the past, but keeping the Vampire game to a strict 7 camm clans would have removed any if the fun lots that have ever happened with the gios, setites, Assamites, etc..

I think putting it up to a short playtest and player vote is the best way to decide this...

You're completely missing my point.

This system is a direct response to players like me saying "Hey, we hate this being in the city, how can we kill it?" Did I kill Harkness because he affiliated with demons? Nope. Did I try to kill his ambiguous master? Yes. Was hunting demons a central theme of HIS story too? I seem to recall, yeah.

Anyway, it's all academic. The original objection is to cross-sphere rules being used, not the presence of Demons. I think Demon: The Fallen shouldn't be in my Vampire game. The same holds true of Werewolf, and Wraith, and KotE, and Mage and any other system that isn't vampire. Certainly these other supers exist, but there is a method for dealing with them in the back of the vampire book which I would vastly prefer see used then entire other source material.

As to adding rules from the already submitted other source material so we stand at least a chance of combating said source material, it's the least the can be done. If we're stuck with Demon: The Fallen in our game (and I'd rather we weren't), then at least open the rules that let us kill them. Which is what they've done. For which I'm grateful.

You might still be missing the point of my overall objection, but you have my number if you'd like to talk about it in a more personal manner.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

Having read the system, I find the title a bit misleading. Nothing in the provided system allows me to destroy Demon: The Fallen. I, as a player, know quite a bit about Fallen, and once you have a True Name, you can just command them to stop existing (as supported by a few of their flavor stories, but nothing concrete in system).

I respectfully request a way, within the provided system, to permanently destroy these creatures rather than just send them back to hell. Investing months of research into a specific demon is story enough; there should be a way to whack em.

[Oberon Gault]

That application could be used to issue the command (Summon -> Bind -> "Cease to Exist"). Downside, that would make you an infernalist. Which I find to be a bit counterproductive.

I take it back. Totally infernal taint free method of destruction. Have at.

[Galen]

Haha, you guys make a very valid point. My apologies about that, I have the stuff split over several notepad files and I think I missed one. One sec.

[Ross]

Sept 12, 2013 14:32:05 GMT -8 Galen said:

Ross - In regards to your questions this staff has talked long and hard about this very thing. Some on our staff want the demon stuff to go away, some want it to stay, but what we can all agree on is that we want it to be in the players hands to do so. What we have posted is our attempt to give the players the tools they need to define their own story and deal with the stories that are currently in play at this time. Most of the demon bits that are running around at game were put in place by other players at one time or another without any system to back them. We want to make a system available for all players to handle these issues, either to create their own story using them if that is their desire or to get rid of them.

Rob already covered my question on "the rules don't give a way to 'kill' them."

But the larger points in my questions were not really addressed, so I'll expand a bit.

1. If a particular character wants to - for whatever reason - contact a demon, that is a very epic personal story. I would imagine they would need to procure the necessary Lore, from a particular teacher, find the specific demon which might do what they want, and then undertake some unholy rite to compel its presence. And thereafter I imagine the demon would require tasks/services from said invoker before they fulfill the stated desire (and probably losing their soul in the process). All very cool, all very epic. But also, as far as I can tell, very personal.

From the title of the Rule post on this, and the content therein, the implication seems to be that demons are and are going to be game-wide antagonists, rather than obscure and difficult-to-reach quest-givers. Battling demons one-on-one...do we really need that? Would they appear to anyone other than the person who went to all the effort of summoning them? Your reply doesn't make me understand why these are antagonists to battle, rather than burdens for individual characters to bear.

2. Why does Demon: the Fallen have to have anything to do with our game? Yes, infernal powers do exist in the Vampire setting (Dark Thaum and Baali are the low-hanging fruit there), but nothing says Staff has to - or, in my opinion, is justified in - merging an entirely different and unassociated setting and rules system into the Vampire game. Is there any clear reason why going forward, demons have to operate as they do in Demon: the Fallen, rather than being otherwise untouchable and uncontactable (save for those that seek them) entities?

-Ross

[Galen]

Really quick, just letting folks know there is an update in the Demon rules thread for ways to perma-kill demons. Just wanted to let you guys know.

Ross - Thank you for expanding on your questions, I apologize if I failed to answer them to the detail you were looking for. Lemme try again.

1) Demons for the most part, and I say this because players can be surprising, are there for individual story purposes. That said, demons do not generally deal with Kindred, as two species that give way to prideful, self-serving actions its not really something they would have an interest in doing. They are not there as game wide antagonists unless players make them into such things. At this very moment, there exists in this game a couple of these creatures that for the most part are dealing with their own problems, either trying to avoid persecution or just wanting to be left alone. If players wish to keep hunting these beings then they may, and have at and fun doing so, but for the most part these creatures do not have a desire to deal with Kindred. I cannot speak for future staffs but what I can say is that these demons are not meant to be game wide antagonists and as such we are attempting to minimize their effects on the game as a whole.

2) Some of staff agrees with this sentiment and as part of ongoing plots that I cannot exactly touch in public forum, the reality is that Demon: the Fallen demons have existed in the world of ECC for some time now. Our staff is simply trying to assist the player base as a whole on how to deal with these potential antagonists by giving them the tools needed for such. As Rob mentioned earlier there are several examples of other cross-sphere source material being used in the game, and we want to give people the ways to deal with that cross-sphere material. Other 'demonic' entities exist in the Vampire universe generally in the form of spiritual entities and other such things that already have tools in place to deal with them. As this was something that hadn't been addressed we felt players needed to know how to address them.

I hope that answers your questions a bit more. Please, if you have more or I am misunderstanding or not clearly answering any of them let me know and I'll try to expand on them without touching on other players plots.

[David Price]

Is Church Lore one of the ones learnable from Occult Library?

[Ross]

Galen,

Thank you for your response to my first question; I think that tells me what I needed to know.

But on my second question, I'm still not clear on why - despite what may have come before - that from here on out we must adopt Demon: the Fallen into our rules set.

If the current two or three of these NPCs/plots are operating under that mythology due to previous actions/tests/staff calls etc., ok. But what is being proposed is - and correct me if I am mistaken - to be applied to the game from here on out, even after those situations (eventually) resolve themselves.

So again, is there any reason why another setting and sphere-worth of rules needs to be adopted into the Vampire game?

-Ross

[Galen]

Broney - Yes, it is.

Ross - Okay, now I getcha. Sorry for not understanding what you were asking exactly. So here's the deal, these proposed rules sets are for dealing with Demon the Fallen demons, how to summon them, how to get rid of them, etc. If at some point in the future, when all of these crazy shenanigans are wrapped up, people want to see another vote to get rid of these rules (if they are voted in in the first place) on the principle of not letting more Demon the Fallen into game, then I say go for it. I personally would be okay with this idea, and likely to vote in that direction myself and keep infernalism and demony bits to spirits, Baali, Dark Thaum and such.

I feel, though, that if these rules get voted in, then I think they should also need to be voted back out again. It's something the player base as a whole decides not a single staff. That said, there is no way I can make any promises one way or another moving forward, simply that we are proposing tools for dealing with demons from Demon the Fallen because they are in game at this time. I'm not sure I can give a more solid or concrete answer then that unfortunately.

[Ross]

Sept 12, 2013 16:33:15 GMT -8 Galen said:

Ross - Okay, now I getcha. Sorry for not understanding what you were asking exactly. So here's the deal, these proposed rules sets are for dealing with Demon the Fallen demons, how to summon them, how to get rid of them, etc. If at some point in the future, when all of these crazy shenanigans are wrapped up, people want to see another vote to get rid of these rules (if they are voted in in the first place) on the principle of not letting more Demon the Fallen into game, then I say go for it. I personally would be okay with this idea, and likely to vote in that direction myself and keep infernalism and demony bits to spirits, Baali, Dark Thaum and such.

Ok, so, last point (and then I think I'm done): If the current and concerning issue is "how do the PCs rid themselves of demons IC when they pop-up?", why not simply adopt the last post of information in your rules proposal (minus the DtF reference) as a guideline for what current/future Staff might provide to those looking for solutions IC? Everything posted prior to the "kill conditions" is otherwise superfluous.

The summoning and interaction portions of any future demon situations can then be left up to active Staff, and we don't inherently need to bind ourselves into unnecessary cross-sphere rules.

-Ross

[Styx]

I also think I understand more of Ross' and Rob's points now, and I have to say that I agree that the infernalism/demon stuff would be better left as somewhat nebulous things for the staff to arbitrate rather than as a bread-and-butter system for dealing with/destroying demons.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

I'm all for a nebulous system for a thing if it's a one off. But the regularity of infernalism is requiring a hard and fast rules. If there had just been Harkness, I would have been willing to work with staff to find a one-off solution (and indeed, had been). But now I have rumors of four more with no signs of stopping.

If demons are going to be a thing, and they are going to be regulated by rules, there needs to be a hard-fast way of destroying them. Which we now have, so, thank you