Joe for HST !!!

[Victor Vaughn]

Dec 21, 2013 11:57:11 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

Dec 20, 2013 20:21:38 GMT -8 user/874 said:

This is specifically for Brad, as I am one of the two named in his post and I am a big fan of openness and transparency. The character I am leaving behind to serve on staff was a mortal ghoul built on the sorcerer template.
As he got murdered horribly by spectres, it isn't really a problem any more. I pitched him to staff after serving a month and getting to "see behind the curtain" a bit. The concept itself was a "keeping up with the Joneses" sort of reaction to seeing the vast and varied landscape of different concepts and types of characters in play. I will admit to a bit of "pushing the line to see what I can get away with" as well. More specifically, he was a defensively built caster with a huge focus on wards and counter-spelling. In fact, the only thing on his sheet that wasn't covered in the Vampire house rules put out under Sean's staff was the warding/counter-spelling.

I actually got the idea to pitch on the sorcerer template based on characters that were already in game. I built him as a response to and attempted protection from the proliferation of magic, custom rituals, combo-disciplines and general "weird" that has infused the game. If we hadn't entered into a "spirit apocalypse" where that exact specialty was needed, no one would have ever known he wasn't a ghoul with a bit of thaumaturgy. I would be happy to go over the sheet in point by point detail with anyone that would like to take a look at it. Catch me at this next game session

I'm not sure it was your intention to write this the way I read this, so I'm going to post what I think you're saying and I'm just going to pray that I'm wrong.

What I read in the above is that you stepped onto staff for a month. In that month, you were privy to everyone's secret stuff. You thought a 'normal' character couldn't keep up, so you elected to bring in a Sorceror. Further, a sorceror who's concept, near as I can figure is 'I kill magic guys'. Then you linked in with a crew whose concept was 'We kill magic guys'. And all of this was done under the guise of 'well, other weird stuff is already in play'.

I'm pretty sure you don't mean this to come off this way, but when I read the above: A staff member stepping down with super weird shit on their sheet and a vendetta against other people's cookies, it makes me very nervous. While I appreciate the spirit of honesty bringing this to a public discussion (and indeed applaud the openness it takes to discuss such things), I'm kinda shocked by what you have to say.

This is a textbook example of abuse of power and meta-gaming. Being forthright about your transgressions doesn't excuse you from accountability.

[Jeff]

Dec 21, 2013 12:01:30 GMT -8 Shah-Khohr of Ventrue said:

Dec 21, 2013 10:59:09 GMT -8 Thornstar said:

SNIP
Appears to back up what I was saying above. The focus changing from "What" to "Who" and positive motivation for Cam characters, with no mention of negative repercussions for non-cam characters. Where are you getting your fears of your character being run out of game?

It isn't the wording that some of us are feeling nervous over, it's the context and feel. Saying that you won't issue a Tacoma ST might just be saying "I won't dedicate an ST to any one groups time". Or, it might be saying "Rob, I think you're a dick and I won't run your stuff." Saying that you want to focus on Camarilla concepts might be a way of saying "My world view is closer to this set of printed materials and not that set' or it could be saying 'I feel threatened by this grouping of characters and will actively work to get them out of game'.

Ambiguous language and internet forums lead to very threatening situations. Couple that situation with players not on the proposed staff defending these statements, and you have a situation that smacks of 'THIS side will be favored and THAT side will not' mentality. I think it is perfectly understandable to have some of us very wary over what is being skirted around in the above texts.

So, one of the current biggest concerns that people have is getting time with STs for telling stories.  That is always a concern.  In the world of LARP, if you are not RPing with someone else, then you need an ST.  The idea here, in my mind, is that those characters who go to Elysium, deal with other people, etc, inherently require less ST time.  If a person wants to play, picking completely a random, a Harbinger of Skulls who rarely / never leaves the shadowlands, and maybe has a couple ghouls or something, then that essentially requires ST time when he is doing things.  The sort of character should be met with, "Hey, why are you in Seattle? What story are you trying to tell?  How can we help you tell a story that doesn't take a dedicated ST week after week?"

With groups who have capability to RP together, such as groups of Anarchs, or larger groups of Giovanni, it might make more sense to be able to have STs with planned time for the groups on a weekly, or are lest bi-weekly basis.  I don't think anyone wants a to have to rely on a single ST for their story on a week-to-week basis, as STs get sick, are gone occasionally, etc.  This game in inherently a Camarilla vampire game.  Yes, independents and other groups exist. Yes Anarchs are inherently a part of Camarilla games. 

This game has around 100 active players I believe, with 60 - 80 at game on a given night.  With 9 staff members, minus planned papertable dedication, that is 1 ST to every 8 - 10 players.  Since the typical scene run by an ST has maybe 4 character involved in it, that would imply that around 50% of the game, at any instant, will not have an ST around.  If there are more and more people needing ST time because they are playing "outsider" concepts who don't fit into the game, it becomes more difficult to tell stories for everyone.

I hope you see where I'm coming from on this?

In my opinion it is not an "US" and "THEM" sorta thing, it is a how can we best use ST time?

Obviously just that statement is going to be threatening to some people, just because they know how much ST time they need to tell their stories.  Those with strange powers (magic, necromancy, weird spirit stuff, oracular, etc) need more than others just by default.  I think that does make us less likely to approve such concepts in the near future, because there is a lot of that in game at the moment anyways.  Does that mean we want to force said characters out of the game?  Not at all.  At the heart of things, we want to tell stories. We want to tell cool stories. And we all want to have fun. I hope we can have fun and play stories with what is already in game, but with less likelihood of approving strange off-the-wall sort of concepts.

I highly encourage everyone to talk in person, at game today, with Joe, myself, or whoever.  Because, as always, you lose like 70% of communication without body-language and voice tone.

[Emelian Fantana]

I am trying to do this from my phone so answers will be brief. Please excuse me.

Mike: I will be encouraging the story to come to a close in a one on one conversion with that player. I will however not require it. There is no incentive. I will also do this for anyone who wished to see an end goal for their character and help them move onto their next wish as well.

Rob: Even you have to admit that the is an excessive amount of ST given to the snacks that is disproportionate to the players on game. On any given night the current and past staff have had over 50% nom rate for those outside of the Camarilla. That is more than I want to see. Will Anarchs get staff time? Yes. Will it be as much at game time as they have now? No.

As for what Todd did with his past character. I personally feel that the character was bad from a concept level. But has anyone talked with him about his character's motives? Because he played a role in a magic user's death (and died in the same scene) does not mean he was built to kill a specific group of PCs. He played the dude for a month before it died-ish.

But that reaction you have now is one that many have for your own PC. 'How did that get approved?' is exactly the question I am trying to root out. Everyone should know that when a character came into game multiple STs vetted the concept. It wasn't one person who said yes or no to outlandish junk.

I have not finished my I exact approval process but the nuts and bolts are that the more weird something is the more members of staff that have to say yes. Something ultra rare and redonculous will require a unanimous staff decission to let that concept into play.

Ask me more questions at game as needed.

[Jeff]

As a response to other things on the thread...

People come up with ideas for concepts. A person recently returned to game after a long hiatus ( 4+ years), and was thinking up concepts. The concept had a "so, I was thinking of lores and occult library, but I'm not a tremere which is probably the only clan that would get such stuff, so I probably shouldn't pitch that" sorta concept.

Now, knowing what is in the game, very easy to say, as a PA, "Yeah, given the current game content, pitch it, ask for some additional lores that you were scared to ask for, it seems perfectly reasonable."

What this really means, is that 4 years ago, such a concept would have seemed like an outsider type concept.

So, that of course means that when you hear a "hey, I've heard the staff has approved "xyz" in the past, I wonder if they'd approve this outlandish but totally fun concept I have..." it just pushes the lines further out of what a person thinks is outlandish.

I've also heard people say things like of, "well, I'm created this combo discipline that does blah because I can't keep up with all these magic using people, cause it seems like everyone has magic." I personally know stuff IC about things that are out there. My current character has some counter-magic powers. This was not something I asked for, but when I was offered it, I decided to take it. Because I knew, both IC and OOC, stuff that was out there. The power comes through a merit from an obscure vampire book that gives access to stuff in a mortal book.

I'm not necessarily happy with myself that I took it, but I did, cause sometimes the game has the feel of a "cold war" where people are just developing powers for the inevitable explosion. It is really often hard to differentiate between IC and OOC knowledge. Which sucks, actually. There are many people who are uncomfortable with certain things in game, be they demons, dark thaum, etc. I try my damnedest to keep my characters actions to what he knows IC, and to keep powers secret, etc. But sometimes merely buying the powers is done because we feel the general OOC tenor of the game.

Does any of this inherently spell doom for the game? I'm not sure. I was personally hoping for a reset platform, to switch to V20 rules, clean some stuff up, etc. No-one running at this time is interested in that, but after speaking to Joe I decided to join his staff as I felt his idea of focusing more on the core Camarilla type game would be more the style I was interested in.

And, as Joe has mentioned that any group of players ( 10+ ) can petition for a rules change, there might be some things I petition for and see if the game would vote on. But, that would be out-of-staff time, as Joe has clearly articulated to his staff. Any work on any sort of rules-changes is not done with time needed for normal staff duties.

Ok, done rambling, again, if people have questions, talk at game if possible.

Anyways, I'm done, see ya'll around.

[Victor Vaughn]

Dec 21, 2013 15:34:40 GMT -8 Emelian Fantana said:

I am trying to do this from my phone so answers will be brief. Please excuse me.

Mike: I will be encouraging the story to come to a close in a one on one conversion with that player. I will however not require it. There is no incentive. I will also do this for anyone who wished to see an end goal for their character and help them move onto their next wish as well.

Rob: Even you have to admit that the is an excessive amount of ST given to the snacks that is disproportionate to the players on game. On any given night the current and past staff have had over 50% nom rate for those outside of the Camarilla. That is more than I want to see. Will Anarchs get staff time? Yes. Will it be as much at game time as they have now? No.

As for what Todd did with his past character. I personally feel that the character was bad from a concept level. But has anyone talked with him about his character's motives? Because he played a role in a magic user's death (and died in the same scene) does not mean he was built to kill a specific group of PCs. He played the dude for a month before it died-ish.

But that reaction you have now is one that many have for your own PC. 'How did that get approved?' is exactly the question I am trying to root out. Everyone should know that when a character came into game multiple STs vetted the concept. It wasn't one person who said yes or no to outlandish junk.

I have not finished my I exact approval process but the nuts and bolts are that the more weird something is the more members of staff that have to say yes. Something ultra rare and redonculous will require a unanimous staff decission to let that concept into play.

Ask me more questions at game as needed.

So what you're saying is that I, as an Anarch player, will get less attention than the one scene a storyteller has run for me in the ten sessions I have spent at game, because you are trying to give incentive for players to play Camarilla characters?

The worst part of game for me at this moment is the lack of attention that I get from staff members. Waiting for 4+ hours to do a test so I can continue a scene from a week ago doesn't appeal to me now, and being told that it will be even longer than that before I get any attention because the character I have in play doesn't fit within your paradigm, well, that doesn't give me much incentive to vote for you.

[Katie Hester]

Dec 21, 2013 15:45:35 GMT -8 Victor Vaughn said:

So what you're saying is that I, as an Anarch player, will get less attention than the one scene a storyteller has run for me in the ten sessions I have spent at game, because you are trying to give incentive for players to play Camarilla characters?

Not necessarily. Though you may be given a plot line that directs you to interact with the Camarilla players. Joe has already stated that there is a place in a camarilla game for other sects. The goal of this staff is to have more players interacting with each other rather than having the camarilla game, the anarch game, the giovanni game, and the independent game .......of vampire the masquerade.

I know that a number of STs want and plan to seek out the players that have not been getting plot and/or ST attention and asking them if they want some ST driven plot. The goal here is to ensure that STs are telling stories to more groups of players rather than to two players off in a corner all night. There will still be times when those smaller scenes need to happen and we facilitate the stories where ever they may lead, but the small scenes should not be the norm.

There are a lot of characters that feel they have been ignored by the staff over the years (this is not an issue over just the current staff or just the most recent staffs), and while we won't be perfect (no one is), we want to encourage more interaction between the players across sect lines and staff being spread out more evenly to all the players rather than concentrated to a select few.

[Victor Vaughn]

Dec 21, 2013 16:09:25 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Dec 21, 2013 15:45:35 GMT -8 Victor Vaughn said:

So what you're saying is that I, as an Anarch player, will get less attention than the one scene a storyteller has run for me in the ten sessions I have spent at game, because you are trying to give incentive for players to play Camarilla characters?

Not necessarily. Though you may be given a plot line that directs you to interact with the Camarilla players. Joe has already stated that there is a place in a camarilla game for other sects. The goal of this staff is to have more players interacting with each other rather than having the camarilla game, the anarch game, the giovanni game, and the independent game .......of vampire the masquerade.

I know that a number of STs want and plan to seek out the players that have not been getting plot and/or ST attention and asking them if they want some ST driven plot. The goal here is to ensure that STs are telling stories to more groups of players rather than to two players off in a corner all night. There will still be times when those smaller scenes need to happen and we facilitate the stories where ever they may lead, but the small scenes should not be the norm.

There are a lot of characters that feel they have been ignored by the staff over the years (this is not an issue over just the current staff or just the most recent staffs), and while we won't be perfect (no one is), we want to encourage more interaction between the players across sect lines and staff being spread out more evenly to all the players rather than concentrated to a select few.

I've had no problem finding reasons to interact with other players, especially with the Cam player base.

It's the idea that we are currently being allocated an appropriate amount of time, let alone *too much* time, for "independent" stories, that I find misguided.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

In my experience, the same 10 people will demand 85% of the ST's attention regardless of what they are playing. It's the nature of the thing. Weird or straight up, it is what it is. I have a hard time getting my stuff done, but that's largely a symptom of lackadaisical responses to email (which is likely a response to those same 10 players bombarding the STs every week with a million things).

[user/874]

Joh and Rob,

Hey, I just crawled out of bed and I don't have time to fully draft out a reply. Would it be fair to sit down and talk about your concerns at game tonight? I am more than happy to address everything you brought up.

I just do not want the text interface to confuse the waters any further, especially since I am in a hurry to be out the door.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

Joh's in Portland, but I'm around, sure.

[Emilian Fantana]

So, I am sensing some unpopularity with my statements so let me know where I am coming from and then reassure you of something.

In the last few years it became apparent that the past few staffs have had more time spent with non-camarilla centric characters. My proof is in ST nominations. More often than not, over half of the staff will nominate non-Camarilla characters. This does look like they are getting more time because obviously they would not get nominated if they were not getting the at game attention.

That being said, Rob you also mentioned that it was partially in the lacksidasical response to email that made you feel as though you were not getting your attention you needed. My team are people who are successful in their professional lives. You just don't get that way when you fail to respond to those who need you. My team is going to respond to email, that is the matter of fact there.

For those 10 people who take up 85% game, this will stop. Those of you in that 10 group, I am sorry but you are taking away from other people. If anyone on my staff repeatedly talks about one player in all of their AARs, I will inform them to let that plot take a back burner, or end it quickly. This even applies to the Camarilla centric group. If Mark keeps showing up with scenes run for Eric, he will get the same speech.

I made myself available at game for questions but did not get approached by those in this thread who had concerns. This weekend, I would like to seek you out and talk in person if that is ok. I do not want any subtext from my rather bad writing skills to be conveyed in any other way that how it sounds when I talk to people. Please give me that opportunity in person.

[Sethron]

Dec 22, 2013 22:25:05 GMT -8 Emilian Fantana said:

In the last few years it became apparent that the past few staffs have had more time spent with non-camarilla centric characters. My proof is in ST nominations. More often than not, over half of the staff will nominate non-Camarilla characters. This does look like they are getting more time because obviously they would not get nominated if they were not getting the at game attention.

I don't think this is true. On average 4 out of 6 of the noms seem to go to Cammies. Much attention is paid to specific players in the Malkavians, the Nosferatu, and the Ventrue; they tend to be better at asking a staff member for attention, unlike some of the other players who don't. This may be a little heavy to the "other" side (I am not sure the game split, but we are probably 70 - 30, maybe 65 - 35 in percentages), it's not much.

With no disrespect intended, I can't quote numbers, but the staff probably could pull them up; point is, I'm not sure this isn't an instinctual kinda feeling as opposed to good evidence.. I am also operating on 'gut feeling', unless you have a list of staff noms for the last few months, at which point I withdraw my statement

Also, since noms are given fairly regularly for 'happening past a scene', I'm not sure it is a good measurement of time spent with Cam v. non-Cam characters. There are players that get more time--they are often the same players, as Rob mentioned, it seems like. I find that a lot of quiet people go unnoticed--it's not Cam v. Not--it's certain players have assertive personalities and know how to ask for attention.

[The Gentleman]

According to the public status sheet, there are 77 active characters. Of those 77, 27 of them are either Tolerated or Welcomed. That's about 35% non-Cam, not counting infiltrators or people that haven't been Tolerated or Welcomed (Acknowledged isn't one of the adjectives on the sheet, so there's no way to count Cam characters specifically).

Not sure how up to date that sheet is.

[Katie Hester]

vampst.proboards.com/thread/15968/accounting-domain-roster

According to the lastest accounting there are 53 camarilla members, 5 anarchs, and 20 independents.

Now some of this has changed due to character deaths or characters on hold, some players weren't at the accounting, and some people are playing temp characters.

So a rough estimate of 1/3 of the game is not camarilla is probably accurate.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

From what I have read there seems to be a false equivalency being drawn. From what I've read in Jeff and Joe's posts, it seems like you are saying that weirder characters with special powers take more ST time. This does not make any sense to me.

I've been at this game for 7 ½ years now. Up until recently I very rarely interacted with staff at all. Lechley was the first character I've played that dealt with a lot of staff attention or plots at all really. What I found on getting that attention was that 95% of the time I was using from staff had nothing to do with powers on my sheet. I took up some time at the beginning of game during the cattle call thaum checks, but other than that, my staff time almost universally involved the use of my contacts/allies/mentors/businesses. This has nothing to do with any weird powers on my sheet or whether or not I play an unusual clan.

As far as staff time and energy is concerned, I'd be far more concerned about the social, contact-focused Toreador or Business Mogul Ventrue than I ever would be about the Kiasyd scholar.

I may be reading this wrong. I know I have been guilty of misreading things in the past and drawing erroneous conclusions, so if I'm off base let me know. But this seems to be a dangerous and inaccurate assertion.


On a related note, I'm reading that your staff very much wants to push PvP interaction among players in a social sense. While I applaud this, I will point out the naiveté of assuming that that will cut down on staff workload or make less staff interaction needed. When I was in my conflict with McKnight and again with Hamza, easily 90% of my time was spent tapping allies and contacts to fix the problem (I can think of 3 entire game sessions spent doing nothing else), and I know that the other side of the conflict was as well. On top of that, by the nature of that kind of interaction, this necessitated one-on-one scenes. Furthermore, since I was racing against the other party in these interactions, they were all incredibly time-sensitive and couldn't be put off to be handled next week or by email. Pushing social conflict is a fine platform. Personally I'd like to see more of it as well. However, it does not substitute for staff attention. In fact, it will likely increase demands for staff time and energy.

[Jeff]

The main reason I say that "weird powers" take more staff time, is that staff needs to, in my opinion, know about the powers. Know what they can do / not do, etc. True, all magic takes the opening "thaum test" time of either 60 seconds - 3 minutes per person for those that cast rituals.

You are also correct that yes, Allies / Mentors / Contacts take quite a bit of time as well. What I'm not certain of is that such can't be handled by e-mail. Afterall, those that are not within a 2 hour drive of the city... well, rarely can they do anything "right then". My question is how much of that urgency was driven by being uncertain of e-mail responses in a timely fashion versus needing the answer at game?

As to other things, you know, people may be right. Maybe staff time isn't going where we think it is going. Maybe certain people who are outsiders aren't getting time.
That sucks for everyone involved.

There is a perception, and I know there are complaints, about finding staff time. So, rather than try and say how it is now, let's just go with what we plan to do in the future, as Joe says.

We plan to split up staff time. If an AAR ( After-Action report ) always has scenes for one particular player from one staff member, that is something of concern. I'd like to see actual public "Appointment" lists for staff members, so you can get added to this list, and know that you are not being forgotten.

Obviously, nothing is perfect. People aren't perfect, perceptions aren't perfect, and it takes time to work out kinks, etc.

There is one thing I would like to push sooner than later. Lots of people are just "waiting for a quick check" at game. I'd like to see it possible for people to make checks outside of game time for things like business growth, research checks, etc.

Part of that is using a die-roller. You'd have diff, number of dice, and specialty, and be able to make checks, entering notes, and have those results logged in a place that you and the staff can view. I have 90% of that currently implemented at

vampire-ecc.azurewebsites.net/Default.aspx

This website requires a GMail account to access, and I don't currently let you look at your own die-roll logs ( maybe, sometimes hard to remember what I have in place when I have an admin account on that site )

[Katie Hester]

Dec 23, 2013 7:33:53 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

On a related note, I'm reading that your staff very much wants to push PvP interaction among players in a social sense. While I applaud this, I will point out the naiveté of assuming that that will cut down on staff workload or make less staff interaction needed. When I was in my conflict with McKnight and again with Hamza, easily 90% of my time was spent tapping allies and contacts to fix the problem (I can think of 3 entire game sessions spent doing nothing else), and I know that the other side of the conflict was as well. On top of that, by the nature of that kind of interaction, this necessitated one-on-one scenes. Furthermore, since I was racing against the other party in these interactions, they were all incredibly time-sensitive and couldn't be put off to be handled next week or by email. Pushing social conflict is a fine platform. Personally I'd like to see more of it as well. However, it does not substitute for staff attention. In fact, it will likely increase demands for staff time and energy.

Things that may change are stuff like: You call your NPC ally and say that you need help beating out some bigger fish in the social circle. Now they will say yes and call up the other social person at the Seattle court who owes them boons and tell them to back you on this social matter rather than sending one of their lackies to Seattle to back you.

When an NPC has to be played by staff so a player can have the backing of a super ally, it takes that staff member out of commission for the night. If instead someone else in Seattle is told to back you, it forces social interaction between the players which will allow staff to continue running scenes for the night.

[BLewis]

Dec 23, 2013 8:07:03 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Dec 23, 2013 7:33:53 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

On a related note, I'm reading that your staff very much wants to push PvP interaction among players in a social sense. While I applaud this, I will point out the naiveté of assuming that that will cut down on staff workload or make less staff interaction needed. When I was in my conflict with McKnight and again with Hamza, easily 90% of my time was spent tapping allies and contacts to fix the problem (I can think of 3 entire game sessions spent doing nothing else), and I know that the other side of the conflict was as well. On top of that, by the nature of that kind of interaction, this necessitated one-on-one scenes. Furthermore, since I was racing against the other party in these interactions, they were all incredibly time-sensitive and couldn't be put off to be handled next week or by email. Pushing social conflict is a fine platform. Personally I'd like to see more of it as well. However, it does not substitute for staff attention. In fact, it will likely increase demands for staff time and energy.

Things that may change are stuff like: You call your NPC ally and say that you need help beating out some bigger fish in the social circle. Now they will say yes and call up the other social person at the Seattle court who owes them boons and tell them to back you on this social matter rather than sending one of their lackies to Seattle to back you.

When an NPC has to be played by staff so a player can have the backing of a super ally, it takes that staff member out of commission for the night. If instead someone else in Seattle is told to back you, it forces social interaction between the players which will allow staff to continue running scenes for the night.

The flaw in this plan, however, that I see is that with a third of the game as non-Camarilla personas, and the staff's stance of desiring to do little-to-nothing for that third of game, this then pushes the "social PvP" into the last month of game: Murder-town. Or the discussions of "So, how can we retire your character for you?" as previously brought up.

To elaborate, quite a few social routes were attempted, even up to the bitter end, and yet things still devolved to what a small handful of like-minded people seem to rely on: PC Death. With a contingent of bloodthirsty, social-clout having Camarilla members, and a staff that wants players to play normal, nonmagical, Camarilla characters, this sounds more and more like a death sentence to anyone who doesn't have Status 4+.

And, with a very small number of exceptions, I don't think there's that many PCs that actually owe out-of-domain boons (Despite what the Camarilla structure would suggest), which then demands even more staff time to establish this global boon economy that should exist IC (but doesn't, debatably due to several past STs whose stance involved ignoring the outside world-at-large, despite it being Camarilla).

[Katie Hester]

There seems to be alot of mixing and matching of various statements to try and boil down the stance of staff to say that we're going to ignore 1/3 of the game and kill the rest.... Perhaps I'm reading that wrong, I hope that I am.....

Will staff be ignoring everyone that is not a camarilla member? No. We will be giving them plot, but it may be plot that guides them to interacting with camarilla members. If there is existing plot lines that they're running, we'll finish those up and/or tie them into plot lines that camarilla members are running as well. Again, we want to see more interaction between sect lines.

Will people be able to play a social game with less than 4 status? Yes! It's very possible to play a camarilla game with less than 4 status. Will you be able to snap your fingers and make people dance to your tune? No. It's more subtle than that. But it's still very doable. Don't believe me? Go ask Todd about how quickly his zero status brujah rose among those with status. He may not have had the status himself, but he had power nonetheless.

I'm playing something unique, are you going to force me out of play when you step up? No. We want to see that your story is told. Most of the concepts that are currently in play have a place in a camarilla story. Perhaps we have too much of the unique concepts and it leaves most of them being ignored, with no plot happening for the player, but they have a place regardless. Do we really need werewolves and spirit nukes to take place when we have so many creative character concepts in play that we can build story around and towards? I don't think so.

Dec 23, 2013 8:23:10 GMT -8 BLewis said:

To elaborate, quite a few social routes were attempted, even up to the bitter end, and yet things still devolved to what a small handful of like-minded people seem to rely on: PC Death. With a contingent of bloodthirsty, social-clout having Camarilla members, and a staff that wants players to play normal, nonmagical, Camarilla characters, this sounds more and more like a death sentence to anyone who doesn't have Status 4+.

If this is referring to something specific, can you actually bring it up specifically? I'm a bit confused on who or what you are referencing when you're talking of bloodthirsty, social clout having camarilla members. I can make assumptions, but I don't think assumptions or half hinted at accusations are going to move this conversation forward.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Dec 23, 2013 8:56:02 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Will people be able to play a social game with less than 4 status? Yes! It's very possible to play a camarilla game with less than 4 status. Will you be able to snap your fingers and make people dance to your tune? No. It's more subtle than that. But it's still very doable. Don't believe me? Go ask Todd about how quickly his zero status brujah rose among those with status. He may not have had the status himself, but he had power nonetheless.

I'm sorry, I've got to call this one an exception to the norm, if not outright false. I have been at this game for 7 ½ years now, a good 5 of which were spent playing Camarilla characters (a year and a half as my first Nosferatu with 3 status, a year as my Caitiff before I went Anarch with him, a year as my Tremere with 2 status, and a year and a half as Lechley who came in with Status 3). Over those 5 years of playing Cam characters, I have earned exactly 1 status trait in game, and that one posthumously as Lechley, and that took coming up with the plan that killed a Red-Lister and organizing the whole attack. People at this game just really don't want to play the status game. Status is VERY rarely awarded and it becomes next to impossible to earn off a loss, unless you have OOC friends in positions of power, but that is another issue entirely. I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this. By and large, the same PLAYERS are the ones who actually get to play the status game, and it has very little to do with their characters. And often as not if any of the "wrong" players come in with status, they'll quickly lose it. Now there isn't much that staff can do to fix this problem, as there is usually some IC reason that seems legitimate enough, but given that this is how the status game is actually played, at least from my own experience, telling everyone else that they can just go play the status game with everyone else is dismissive and ignorant of the way this game actually plays out.

On the subject of wielding power without much status, I have tried with many characters. I don't usually buy a lot of status because I usually WANT to earn it and really play the status game. All the time I politick with the right people, try to make allies, and continuously find myself readily passed over, excluded from anything important, and generally told to go sit in a corner and wait while the important people handle things. And that is playing low to mid status Cam characters. Forget about getting anything accomplished as an independent or anarch by dealing with the high status crowd.

Now, I'm not complaining that low-status people are excluded IC. That is entirely appropriate and fits canon exactly. I object to the idea that staff seems to want to take away the little bit of actual gameplay that low-status or independent characters actually get, because they really don't get it in playing with the high status crowd or in trying to actually play politics.