One Problem Statement: Too much magic is bad for our game.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Jan 3, 2014 9:33:56 GMT -8 BLewis said:

A lot of people seem to still be dancing around the issue, so here's the answer, bluntly.

What keeps tyrannical magic users alive? Fear.

That's it. Fear. If everyone is too afraid to do anything (See Luthias and Mayek), they get to keep on existing until something bigger happens upon them. A more personal reference point, as soon as the Davey Contingent (TM) decided they wanted my PC dead, regardless the reasoning, the timer had started. Why? Because they're used to PC death, so imparting it on others is just another Saturday. Whereas Mad Tom had to go hat-in-hand to others, begging for help to kill a character, and lucking out on an eleventh hour hit.

Why did Luthias last so long? Because no one acted against him, because he was the boogeyman that everyone knew about.

And as far as the question of "Is magic fun for everyone or not?" Consider that half of the game voted in the new Gangrel Magic. Half. Brand new magic. People who voted against it largely already had magic, non-magic clans included. What does game want? I'd say it wants magic. Trying to claim it's the villain of the week when everyone seems to want it is nonsensical and, in many cases in this thread, hypocritical.

Here Here! Exactly this.

What keeps the "big bads" of this game like Luthias alive has little to nothing to do with their powers. Luthias was the master of propaganda. He stayed alive so long because no one dared to act against him. He perpetuated, quite masterfully, the illusion that he was unkillable. Yet that plainly was not true.

Luthias and myself were not killed by overt magic, and we were perhaps the best examples of magic + tons of xp in the game, each with many paths and rituals plus the combat stats to use them well. And what killed me was treachery and a knife. What killed him was social politics, notably his actions against his own clan. Magic is therefore NOT needed to defeat magic.

[The Gentleman]

Weren't Lechley and Luthias killed after being Torped by one of the most powerful magical NPCs ever introduced into the game?

[Styx]

Another deterrent (at one time) for Sean.s staff was.the rule they'd placed that learning magic, for the first time, took.an amount of months equal to (insert formula here) which daunted me at this because it would have taken Tiberius somewhere around 8 ooc months to learn something he wanted to learn.

Granted, that does nothing to stop new characters from coming in chock fill of magic, but it can hold of fexisting characters to some degree

[Wolf]

+1 to Brad

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Lechley was incapacitated with aggravated damage in that fight. However there are many causes that could have caused this, and that was not what caused my death nor Luthias'. My ill-advised decision to go to Richter for healing caused my death. I would have recovered from the battle.

There is no such thing as an unkillable vampire in this system. Seriously. I'll say again, Luthias would have died to a pair of mortals if Sebastian hadn't tested up 4 times on his Perception roll. This is an incredibly lethal system to those who understand how to play it, and it doesn't take magic to do it.

[Kevin K]

Nobody is arguing absolutes here, like 'unkillable' or 'unstoppable'. I think we should avoid those comments and discussions as distracting.

We have agreed that it's an advantage. The conversation now is about whether it's still fun at our game to play a character without that advantage. Our IC choices suggest that maybe it's not -- characters pursue magic at every opportunity, and those opportunities are growing. Some player reports suggest that maybe it's not -- more and more character concepts are taken by magic users which are more effective than non-magic users.

So we have to ask, now before the tide comes in, what happens to the setting, the story, and the game's balance when we take this to its conclusion? Is there a change we should make here to keep the fun in place for everyone?

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

To Brad, what kept Luthias alive was fear, sure, but he regularly murdered folks that talked bad about him (SEE Richard Castle), so there's unfounded fear of spooky tremere magic, and then there's blatant PC killing.

Also I don't think with the game that is currently being offered voting in new magic is outside the current norm. Again, the boogeyman Tremere (that miraculously came back from character ending torpor at least once) was still alive and featured heavily in the discussions of the Great Pack which was the role playing introduction of the powers, far earlier than the actual system was voted in.

[Sethron]

Jan 3, 2014 14:42:06 GMT -8 Barnaby Cuthbert said:

To Brad, what kept Luthias alive was fear, sure, but he regularly murdered folks that talked bad about him (SEE Richard Castle), so there's unfounded fear of spooky tremere magic, and then there's blatant PC killing.

I don't think this is true, actually. Darrin said that he had not killed a PC in all his time as Luthius until about a year into my game--he might have been wrong, but I would like to ask you politely to list all the character deaths he was responsible for? I think it might average less than we'd think.

From the stories, I think Villoren was responsible for more character deaths, and he was just a Brujah.

Nobody is arguing absolutes here, like 'unkillable' or 'unstoppable'. I think we should avoid those comments and discussions as distracting.

We have agreed that it's an advantage. The conversation now is about whether it's still fun at our game to play a character without that advantage. Our IC choices suggest that maybe it's not -- characters pursue magic at every opportunity, and those opportunities are growing. Some player reports suggest that maybe it's not -- more and more character concepts are taken by magic users which are more effective than non-magic users.

So we have to ask, now before the tide comes in, what happens to the setting, the story, and the game's balance when we take this to its conclusion? Is there a change we should make here to keep the fun in place for everyone?

I think homebrew combo disciplines answered this, personally.

You can now play a character that doesn't stagnate because you ran out of powers to pursue (if you feel that way. Personally, until this character, I've never been one to spend xp after creation. It's new to me). I think they are more expensive, but they are an avenue to take. Even if you don't want to homebrew, there are lots you can use. Combo disciplines are a thing vampires do for versatility, and that's what magic gives you, versatility.

You want to be a prophet? There are combo disciplines for that--really cool ones, I might add. You want to do aggravated damage with your fists? Got that one. Punch 'em dead.

Even without these powers, though, I enjoy non-magic clans a lot (obviously I'm just speaking for me; I will not presume to know others' opinions). I prefer Toreador, Ventrue, Brujah. I played a Toreador when I first got in and had no powers (I was actually a ghoul impersonator), but had lots of fun; I found the plots and hunted them down and got into political issues with the Gangrel when they took them out from under me 'cause they were faster than me.

My Brujah has no magic. I feel very effective and valid. I took allies and contacts as my primary focus--it's very cool for me when I get to say "Let me call someone about that" and that's just one of the non-magical avenues a person can take--a personal favorite of mine, that right now I get to be threatened by the new political idea that my allies and contacts cannot reach me here, and get to be huffy.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Jan 3, 2014 15:19:36 GMT -8 Sethron said:

Jan 3, 2014 14:42:06 GMT -8 Barnaby Cuthbert said:

To Brad, what kept Luthias alive was fear, sure, but he regularly murdered folks that talked bad about him (SEE Richard Castle), so there's unfounded fear of spooky tremere magic, and then there's blatant PC killing.

I don't think this is true, actually. Darrin said that he had not killed a PC in all his time as Luthius until about a year into my game--he might have been wrong, but I would like to ask you politely to list all the character deaths he was responsible for? I think it might average less than we'd think.

From the stories, I think Villoren was responsible for more character deaths, and he was just a Brujah.

The PCs or NPCs the character killed weren't provided to me in a list at any point OOC, but I was told about Castle's death from surprise by the player of Castle, and the context from Josh's perspective was that his PC was murdered for attempting to plot against the other PC. I was told that the Luthias character had killed around six others before then. Keep in mind the PC had been around for 5+ years, so who knows if he even remembers how many his character has killed or has had killed. Precise numbers and situations are irrelevant though, because I was expressing a memory of a personal feeling I had about the situation that occurred quite some time ago. Broney (who has a better memory than I and more access as a long term Tremere player) could maybe answer your question if you'd like to peruse it further. Darren may have been semantically discussing whether his character got a death blow in the midst of a killbox or not as well, I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

I remember. The very first character Luthias actually killed was Saga. He was proud of the fact that he had gone so long without killing a PC. His second was Heron. His third was Harkness. That's it. He didn't kill Castle by the way.

[Sethron]

He did order Castle killed, though.

Although, to be fair, that just supports the statement that he was kept alive by propaganda.

[Kevin K]

Jan 3, 2014 15:19:36 GMT -8 Sethron said:

Jan 3, 2014 14:42:06 GMT -8 Barnaby Cuthbert said:

I think homebrew combo disciplines answered this, personally.

You can now play a character that doesn't stagnate because you ran out of powers to pursue

Character stagnation isn't the problem we're talking about. The harm described in the very first post was about other concepts being not fun to play (which I worded as devalued). We could have a separate thread on stagnation if you think it's an issue.

Offering homebrew disciplines has the huge drawback of complicating the rules for this game of ~100 players. One of the rules that is very difficult is Kindred Lore, which should enable those with the lore to anticipate the powers of others. If it is a solution to devaluing characters, it has more problems than benefits.

[BLewis]

A point of curiosity, of those among "non magic" clans who possess magic, how many are former staff members / storytellers? Just putting together rough notes on what I know, my estimate puts the number at "all of them."

If half the game voted in favor of Draiocht, and just shy of half the game voted against it, with those most vocal against it included in these threads, isn't it a sad state of affairs if those we have previously voted into running the game are responsible for the same "issue" that they bring up as something threatening its well being?

Magic-bearing clans generally have a fairly obvious social structure to them, from the Assamites recognizing their Eldest to the Giovanni nodding to the Don/Capo/Augustus, and the entire Tremere structure itself. The problem, then, is evidenced in non-magic-clan characters having magic having what canon says they shouldn't have. Perhaps this issue, itself, should be examined rather than "Magic is bad"?

Moreover, for every Luthias in ECC canon, how many responsible, non-murder-approving/enacting characters are there? Quite a few more. We remember those that last the longest, since they were there to be remembered the longest. Not because they had the most dots to throw around, and not because they had the highest body counts. How many died under the preceding and following Princes from Luthias? And of those attributed to Luthias, how many were at the order of someone else?

As far as "Ooo, magic is dangerous," I can say this with certainty: I used magic to remove one PC from game over the lifetime of Durante. Please tell me again how magic is so detrimental to game when its handled correctly.

[Thornstar]

Jan 3, 2014 17:57:46 GMT -8 BLewis said:

... when its handled correctly.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that last part, but 'Correctly' is a word that launches a thousand ships across the internet.

[Kevin K]

Why's everybody talking about murder?

My concern isn't necessarily about lethality, please remember that I'm the author of the "Die like a punk" article.

It is just one example of how magic powers make the wielder more effective, to the point where that concept (combat, in this case) isn't fun to play without magic because you're perpetually second-class. There are other examples like investigator, spy, etc.

Normally I'd say there are still areas unaffected, like crafts or influence perhaps. But the point of this thread is that with the flexibility allowed via ritual and fetter creation, is there any playstyle unaffected? Could I craft an inspiration fetter that gives me a significant (3 dice?) boost to a crafts roll? What about a ritual that provides the same effect? I don't even know what's out there at this point, and that's a big part of what concerns me.

[BLewis]

Jan 3, 2014 22:05:06 GMT -8 Thornstar said:

Jan 3, 2014 17:57:46 GMT -8 BLewis said:

... when its handled correctly.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that last part, but 'Correctly' is a word that launches a thousand ships across the internet.

I find this ironic, considering how many of your past several character coteries have come in and killed what you've expressed you don't like OOC. "Correctly" is not for the individual to decide, nor is it for the "group of six to ten individuals" to decide. As has been gone over time and time again, this is a community, not a dictatorship, not a shadow government monarchy.

Jan 4, 2014 0:22:48 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

Why's everybody talking about murder?

Because that seems to be what it inevitably comes down to. Someone decides that they don't like what someone else is doing/playing/whatever, and suddenly we have a dead Vampire in what was supposed to be a political game, in a political atmosphere, populated by political characters. No boons exchanged, no debts incurred, just a pile of ash. People keep talking about wanting more politics, but the degree to which these same people are ignoring every opportunity to engage in new politics is dumbfounding.

Jan 4, 2014 0:22:48 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

My concern isn't necessarily about lethality, please remember that I'm the author of the "Die like a punk" article.

Lethality should be a large concern. As soon as one character becomes lethal to another, especially for OOC reasons, the story they wanted to tell is cut short. Not changed, not helped along, not altered, but done, silenced.

Jan 4, 2014 0:22:48 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

It is just one example of how magic powers make the wielder more effective, to the point where that concept (combat, in this case) isn't fun to play without magic because you're perpetually second-class. There are other examples like investigator, spy, etc.

Then don't buy magic. Or play up to the canon stereotypes, that aren't invalidated by any other source material, and don't trust magic. Have nothing to do with it. Avoid it. Like I said previously, these are storytellers who have been buying into magic. They know better. Claiming "game made me do it" is ludicrous.

Jan 4, 2014 0:22:48 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

Normally I'd say there are still areas unaffected, like crafts or influence perhaps. But the point of this thread is that with the flexibility allowed via ritual and fetter creation, is there any playstyle unaffected? Could I craft an inspiration fetter that gives me a significant (3 dice?) boost to a crafts roll? What about a ritual that provides the same effect? I don't even know what's out there at this point, and that's a big part of what concerns me.

A fetish is expected to be run as an alternate personality. Because it is. Per the write-ups in the book, even. There are very, very few examples of when someone else's character has truly incurred on someone else's game play, and that's 99% of the time when a group of players come in with the express intent to "shut down" or otherwise destroy characters that they decided, OOC beforehand, they don't like. Those players are what's wrong with game. Not magic. Not weird things. Not even non-Vampire material. But OOC Metagaming of "We don't like this, so let's kill it and come up with a story later on why we had to." Players with this track record is what is caustic to the gaming atmosphere, not players looking to explore what could exist or work within a Vampire city or society.

[Katie Hester]

Jan 4, 2014 11:50:29 GMT -8 BLewis said:

Jan 3, 2014 22:05:06 GMT -8 Thornstar said:

I think you hit the nail on the head with that last part, but 'Correctly' is a word that launches a thousand ships across the internet.

I find this ironic, considering how many of your past several character coteries have come in and killed what you've expressed you don't like OOC. "Correctly" is not for the individual to decide, nor is it for the "group of six to ten individuals" to decide. As has been gone over time and time again, this is a community, not a dictatorship, not a shadow government monarchy.

I get the feeling that you blame Aaron and those of his chantry for your character's most recent death. You do realize that it wasn't their decision... that they were doing what they were told by the people currently in charge of the city, right? Based on the information that they have IC... right?

As far as the deaths that the previous upper court were responsible for, from my understanding, they had IC reasons for those deaths.

If you're arguing these points based solely on your dislike of people or because you think they're "out to get you", this conversation isn't going to get anywhere.

[BLewis]

Jan 4, 2014 12:02:51 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Jan 4, 2014 11:50:29 GMT -8 BLewis said:

I find this ironic, considering how many of your past several character coteries have come in and killed what you've expressed you don't like OOC. "Correctly" is not for the individual to decide, nor is it for the "group of six to ten individuals" to decide. As has been gone over time and time again, this is a community, not a dictatorship, not a shadow government monarchy.

I get the feeling that you blame Aaron and those of his chantry for your character's most recent death. You do realize that it wasn't their decision... that they were doing what they were told by the people currently in charge of the city, right? Based on the information that they have IC... right?

As far as the deaths that the previous upper court were responsible for, from my understanding, they had IC reasons for those deaths.

If you're arguing these points based solely on your dislike of people or because you think they're "out to get you", this conversation isn't going to get anywhere.

No, I don't, but I do blame him for the dozens of other characters he's been largely responsible in the deaths of. I also know how easy it is to write characters with predisposition against certain things that they don't like, loosely, so that they have some degree of leeway to murder to their hearts' content IC. They've been doing it for years, so its not like it isn't a practiced, careful thing.

This conversation wasn't going anywhere in the first place, since it's a lesson of responsibility of former-staff-members complaining about people having things that they have that others shouldn't have or too many others have.

Remember how much sense killing the Kiasyd in the corner, who did nothing against anyone, made?

[Katie Hester]

The Kiasyd made an agreement with the Assamites to be allowed to live in their domain. When the assamites went after someone we believed to be an infernalist, the Kiasyd called up several people to warn them and send reinforcements to protect the suspected infernalist and take out the assamites. That is why the kiasyd died. IC reasons.

[BLewis]

Whatever helps you justify the most OOC murderous crew at game, I guess.