New Toreador Plot and Mechanics Discussion

[Bertie]

One thing I mentioned on both Joe and Kevin's campaigns was a desire to go through and create more plot hooks and perks for playing the Toreador, Ventrue and Brujah Clans.  From what I have read of the world of darkness, those three clans have been largely neglected when compared with the amount of available powers, plots, and roles that other clans have. I'd like to start with Toreador

I would like to have a discussion here with all current, former and future Toreador players about what they see appealing in the Toreador clan, either from what has happened in game, or what is mentioned in the various books. I was disappointed with the Clanbook Toreador revised book, as while it had many lovely stories about what other Toreador were doing over a thousand years ago, it did not have much information on what modern Toreador actually did. It also completely ignored all of the Anarch and Sabbat Toreador. The entire book had no merits, and only three combination disciplines.

I think that Toreador could use more to do, and more to do it with. I'm not proposing a Driocht level plot, but instead something like the Nosferatu got with the Nos Phones, Nos Net and the spawning pool mechanics, that gave new Nosferatu roles and expanded what existing Nosferatu could do.

Now with that in mind I'd like to start out by summarising what I have found of existing Toreador material:

Clanbook Toreador Revised

SPOILER: Click to show

-Toreador are less vulnerable to the passage of time, largely still acting on a mortal scale, with less humanity this is less effective.
-Toreador keep mortal families and fall in love
-Rivalries as a game
-Revenge as an Art Form
-Toreador Guilds (Almost no info)
-Toreador Social Networks
-Toreador Prestige

Combo Disciplines:
Bliss (boost a virtue by 1)
Soul Painting (Paint a picture of someone you have observed to learn their secrets)
Doubletalk (Speak secret messages to others with Doubletalk)

Clanbook Toreador First Edition

SPOILER: Click to show

-Toreador Parties and the crashing thereof
-Harming people with words
-Art Defilers subfaction
-Importance of owning art.
-Importance of travel.
-Grooming mortals for power.
-Exploiting Humanity

Mechanics:
Creativity Score of 1d10-3 at char gen (Not a fan of this one myself)
Crafting system and a secondary of art appreciation
Controllable Thirst (1 point) Hunger frenzy -3 difficulty
Eye for Beauty (1 point) Artistic appreciation difficulties -4
Mortal Double (2 Points)
Refined (2 points) -3 difficulty on etiquette rolls, invited to more important parties
Blase (3 points) Immune to presence, unless significantly more powerful, then you need to spend willpower
Gifted (3 points) Difficulty on Artistic expression -3.
Greater Colors (3 points) -5 Diff on Aura Perception, -1 dif on art involving color
Supernatural Spouse (4 Points) - True Love with a non vampire supernatural
Powerful Ghoul (5 points) Better than normal ghoul, completely in love with you and super jealous.
Vampire Spouse (5 Points): Mutual blood bond with another kindred, have True Love
Poor Taste (1 point flaw): Can't have art appreciation, forever a poseur.
Rival (1 point flaw): Competing with another kindred
Tortured Artist (1 point flaw): Subconsciously lead yourself to suffering to better your art.
Vulgar (1 point flaw): One status left when invitations are concerned.
Artistically Inept(2 point flaw): +2 difficulty on art, maximum of 9.
Social Outcast (3 point flaw): No place in vampiric and toreador society.

Libellus Sanguinis II

SPOILER: Click to show

-Patronage
-Monastic Toreador
-Knightly Orders
    -The White Company (God and Celibacy)
    -The Fellowship of Our Lady (Protection of Women)
    -The Order of Chanticleer (Hunters of Baali and Demons)
-Toreador Library at Malta with a sealed door that nobody knows what is behind.

New Powers:
Artist's Intent (Alternate level 3 Auspex)
 Learn about the Artist's state of mind when studying an artistic work

Diplomat's Boon (Level 5 Presence, Level 3 Auspex)
 Learn what the target wants to hear.

Merits and Flaws:

Fetch (2 points) - You have a mortal twin or body double who can act for you during the day.

Patron (2-4 Points) A patron of your work who tries to advance you.

Closer Than Blood (3-5 Points): You have another Cainite that you trust. You can feel their emotions and pain.

Touched by God (3 Points) Expression is -2 diffuclty, if about god -3 difficulty

Vampiric Consort (5 Points): Marriage or similar with another vampire. Both of you gain the benefits of True Love.

If taken with Closer Than Blood, you can share disciplines.

Rivalry (3 point flaw)

Disparaged (2 point flaw) married someone below your station. (Penalty on socials)

Used and Abused (2 point flaw) - More powerful vampires make your life miserable

Vulgar (2 point flaw) - You say the wrong things +2 dif on social rolls

Demesure (3 point flaw) - You are overly proud, when that pride is threatened you must make a willpower check or struggle to prove your honor.

Player's Guide to the High Clans

SPOILER: Click to show

-More of the same
Hand of the Master Artisan (Auspex 1, Celerity 1) Quick Crafting
Lots of High Clan merits, which I'm not going to repeat all of them here.

Ashen Knight 

SPOILER: Click to show

-Knights Hospitilier
-Knights of Bitter Ashes
-Minor Knight Groups
-Very specific chivalry related merits and flaws
-Franchise Secondary Skill, Can be used instead of Ettiquite and Intimidation in right situation, the "I know I'm better than you" skill.
-Grail Embrace (Don't need to feed, super ghouls, blood does aggrivated damage to vampires and so on)

What Toreador Actually Do:

Reading through all four of the above books, here is what I see Toreador actually doing from the source material:
Create artistic work and performances
Sponsor and hoard artistic work and performances for social prestige
Sabotage artistic work and performances to ruin the social prestige of others
Host parties to gain standing.
Sabotage parties.
Gain revenge on people in horrific ways.
Keep up with human trends.
Romance everything in the world of darkness.
Join Artistic Guilds.
Join Knightly and Monastic Orders.
Join Social Cliques.
Set up elaborate medieval dating shows (Courts of Love)
Hoard knowledge.
Control every major vampire faction.

What we currently support

From what I can tell the only rules and setting support we have for any of this is the crafting system. The Toreador clan disciplines are well set up for Hand of the Master Artisan, which works great in the current crafting system. Live performance also works well with Toreador Presence, making it easier to produce masterpieces than with other crafts. While we do have Toreador Prestige in game, it is the same system that all the other clans are using. There is no prestige benefit currently to creating a masterpiece, or sponsoring the creation of one. While to some extent our current system can be forced to do that, I think it might be more interesting to do some sort of bidding on the success or failure of an artistic piece or event.

Now first off, does anybody have anything else that they see Toreador doing that I didn't mention in my big long list?
After that I'd like to talk about giving more plotline, plot hook, and on occasion mechanical support to tell those sorts of stories.

[Bertie]

Alternative Sources for Toreador Material
This is a placeholder for now, but we may be able to tap already created homebrew Toreador material, as well as Daeva, Invictus and bloodline material for requiem to see what has already been done, and if any of it can be adapted.


Homebrew Material:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}Chris's Toreador Guide
Toreador Lore on the Website
Ross's Toreador Guild Concept
Toreador Rose Guild System

Requiem: The Invictus:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}The Invictus is actually a faction in Requiem rather than a clan, but I think a lot of their stuff could be potentially helpful when talking about Toreador. Among other things they have much more fully fleshed out guilds and knightly orders in the modern knights, that could be used to expand upon the weaker sections in the Toreador books.

Social ideas of note:
Invictus Games
    -Venery: Competitive hunting for points and a prize.
    -Hoax: Competitive masquerade coverup.
    -Puppet Play: Story telling using mortals as unwitting actors.

Guilds:
    -Prestige of a guild is dependent upon the accomplishments of its graduates
    -Petitioning to join requires a letter of intent, a gift, and an interview. Learning what the Maester wants is the first test.
    -Exercise, the period remedial (for a vampire) learning.
    -Apprenticeship, only now are they licenced to practice as a guild member, teach, assist with tasks, and learn
    -Graduates, end of professional relationship, brought on as teachers, encouraged to squeeze out competitors.

Knightly Orders:
    -Subset of Guilds
    -Undying pledge from students.
    -Training may involve staged events, real threats, or actual missions
    -Apprentices effectively are low level commanders.
    -Graduates are high ranking commanders, or start a new chapter.

Founding a new Guild:
    -Must be recognized as a master of the skill
    -Social struggle for the guild to be accepted
    -A few months as a grace period to find students

Example Factions:

The Cherubim
    -Sponsor Artistic Productions, without mortals realizing the true nature or sometimes even identity of benefactor.
    -Successfully sponsoring is a way to show your own greatness, invite friends and rivals to opening night.
    -Can gain a dot of prestige (up to 3) from membership
    -Requires Academics 2, Resources 3, Contacts 2 in the artistic community.

The Most Noble Fellowship of Artemis
    -Hunt Club
    -An excuse to socialize with peers while doing an innocuous sporting activity
    -Requires Animal Ken 1, Firearms 1, Riding 1, Resources 3 (Supplies and lodging)
    -Membership can give the 1st dot of prestige, if sufficiently skilled, could get more.
    -Depending on Hunt Club and chapter they hunt normal prey, ghouled prey, human volunteers, non-volunteers, blood hunted vampires, or other supernaturals.
    -Volunteers often do so in exchange for badly needed money, or a cure for a sick relative.
    -If they survive, volunteers are often ghouled as capable servants.
    -A chapter isn't considered established until it has a werewolf pelt.

The Most Honerable Order of the Thorned Wreath
    -Knightly Order devoted to Courage, Courtesy and Loyalty
    -Battle training and treatises on virtues of a soldier
    -Declaration that lives of civilians are more important than your own
    -The Thorned Wreath that defends the covenant.
    -The initiated are joined into an operative cell of three as a quick response unit to protect during negotiations and travel, as well as to join in battle.
    -Sword and parry is traditional, but also sword and gun, and in some chapters pickup and shotgun.

Combination Disciplines (Dice pools would need to be changed)

The Knight's Example (Dominate 2 or Presence 2, plus potence 2 or fortitude 2)
1 willpower
Charisma + Melee + Dominate or Presence
Instant
A number of allied subjects equal to the successes rolled may add the users presence or dominate to the next weaponry or brawl dice pool they use in the scene. This may only be used once per scene.

[Bertie]

Ideas for new Toreador Material
Again a placeholder for now until we start coming up with new options for the Toreador for discussion.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Personally I always really liked the idea of the Toreador Guilds. I use them in my own games, modeled on the actual Renaissance Guild structure only even more vicious.

I know our staff started to run something with one of the Guilds but the player left and the plot got dropped.

Totally agree by the way about the need for more Toreador stuff. While I've never personally really liked them as a clan, there has to be a reason that they are in charge of or at least very close to in charge of both major sects (see Raphael de Corazon who puppets Hardestadt beautifully and Melinda Galbraith, Regent of the Sabbat).

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

A while back a when I was playing a Toreador (Jean Eugene Robert Houdini) myself and another former player and myself wrote the following: emeraldcitychronicles.com/58504/196702.html

Not sure if you've read this or not Kevin.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Additionally the lore is also very revealing:

Definitions:

Common Coteries and Groups: Convocation of Houses, Rose Council (Australia), White Roses, Council Fire of Dreamers, Chronos Artistic Movement, Dusk Blossom.

Rare Coteries and Groups: Council of Petals (U.S.), Dark Roses, Watchers, Toreador Knightly Orders (Libellus Sanguinus 2, Toreador section)

Toreador Lore 1: What an unreleased childe would have heard through the grapevine

Understands that Toreador are passionate about arts and humanities.
Heard the terms Salon, Artiste, and Poseur, but does not understand what these mean.
No lineage knowledge.
Aware of arts in city.
Toreador attend art shows, high society galas, and media events.

Toreador Lore 2: What a newly released Childe would know

Knows the current toreador scandal/politics (local) in relation to other clans. May have head rumors of the regional toreador scandals/politics, but probably doesn't know the inner workings behind it.
Can briefly summarize local Toreador views of other clans in their sect. Would have to do some digging to gain a regional perspective.
Has a basic understanding of Toreador ideals.
Knows the difference between Artiste and Poseur. Hopes never to become a Burnout.
Knows the names of the five Guilds—including their basic functions, focus, and structure.
Knows there are lineages, and may be able to name a few houses. However, may not know if they are major or minor houses.
Can recognize local Toreador.
May have attended a salon
Understands the Toreador status system and its uses.

Toreador Lore 3: What an up-and-coming Toreador Powerhouse would know

Knows Toreador specific events and rumors from 1400 to present time, or history of Clan Toreador that spans the character's lifetime, whichever is greater. [CB Toreador 3rd ed. Begin with "The Renaissance and the Founding of the Camarilla" pg 32]
Knows the names of each Didaskalos for each Guild, all of the members of your Guild in the Region.
Knows the proper etiquette for attending a grand salon.
Recognizes the names of some of the common societies/coteries (see below) within clan Toreador, but is unsure as to their membership or their purpose.
Knows the names of the major houses in Toreador, and can contact its most prominent member -- this is not necessarily the Head of the House;
Can name some of the minor houses in Toreador.
Understands the differences between the various Toreador gatherings, and may have even been personally invited to a Salon.

Toreador Lore 4: What an established Toreador has overheard

Understands enough about the relationship between the Artistes and Poseurs to know that no one should feel threatened by being referred to as a Poseur.
Knows Toreador-specific events and rumors from Ancient Greece to present time (does not include Minoan Crete, First City, or Second City).
Knows the general history of Constantinople, the city of Michael. (However, the character is unlikely to know kindred-specific details about the death of Michael and the fall of Constantinople.)
May have heard some basic rumors about the clan founder. The founder was likely female, some call her Arikel and some call her Ishtar. She was a sculptor, a bull-dancer, a courtesan, or a priestess—perhaps all of these and perhaps none of these.
May have encountered or spoken with one the Ray’een al-Fen, the Islamic Toreador. [Note: if your character is a Ray’een al-Fen, you would likely know this information at Toreador x2]
Knows most of the ideologies of the common Toreador Societies/Coteries. May know a prominent member of that coterie or group.
May have heard of some of the rare Toreador Socieites/Coteries, but is uncertain of their membership or focus.
May have several contacts within the Major Toreador houses, and knows the names of all of the minor Toreador houses.
Can wrangle an invitation to major Toreador Balls or Grand Salons; knows the etiquette of how to host Salons and may know enough etiquette to effectively host a Toreador Ball.
May know about some portions of the Book of Nod relating to the Toreador.
Knows the history of the recent re-establishment of the Guilds and knows the Guild Membership of neighboring Regions.

Toreador Lore 5: Gossip that takes real talent to uncover

Knows Toreador specific events and rumors through the history of the clan, including the legends of the First City and Second City, as related from the Toreador perspective. [includes CB Toreador 3rd 13-16]
Knows of the rare Toreador coteries/groups/orders, and might have a means to contact a member.
Very aware of Toreador Lineages. (Contact ST for information.)
Knows the history of the guilds. Can generally identify a Toreador’s guild affiliation.
Owns or knows significant portions of the Book of Nod that relate to the Toreador. Have heard that there are fragments that may have additional Toreador information.
Knows how to host a Grand Salon with all the proper etiquette.

[Victor Vaughn]

I agree with Jaron here; guilds seem to be incredibly important, but are not fleshed out at all. You have a lot of room to create something really interesting. LET THE SPICE FLOW.

[Bubba Kush]

What is the perceived problem here? That clan Toreador doesn't have enough mechanics or written canon?

Firstly, your list of 'things toreador do'is relatively complete and THAT'S OK. The problem is that all of those things are hard to do, or at least they are supposed to be.

The reason why toreador seem weaker specifically in ECC is twofold: the social game of the Camarilla is ignored and the STs value mechanics over role play (further evidenced by this very thread).

Vampires are petty people and its the toreadir who keep the social trends. Tremere, Nosferatu, and the Independents are all ridiculed by the toreador and its partly that (and Ventrue mistrust) that informs Cam social norms.

If the STs are really interested in beefing up the toreador then you must do so in the realm of role play, not mechanics. Ugly, rude, unflattering, and intimidating vampires must work extra extra hard to get anything from important Toreador. You can't do that with mechanics.

Secondly, people choose Toreador because we like the intangibles of the characters.they are graceful, charming, angst ridden, and very much a classical Stoker/Rice vampire. We like being these characters.

It's unfortunate that many of the aspects of game that Toreador do best are trivialized: social interactions with mortals, acquiring luxuries for kindred, and interacting with the larger kindred world. You the STs choose to make theses aspects of game trivial, at least compared to Thaum, Nos net, Malk Time, etc.

At start of game, why don't you ask the Toreador how they are shaping mortal culture, networking, growing nightclubs and cultural businesses, etc? That's more important to the story of the game than what spells an individual possesses.

In short: leave clan Toreador alone, it's the STs job to provide plot and to make sure that what Toreador typically does is valued by the Cam (even if it's not valued in the mechanics).

[Bertie]

Thanks for the links Chris, from what I've seen of the toreador lore, a lot of it seems to be made based on some pretty good custom material I've seen elsewhere on the internet that fleshes out the guild system. While guilds are mentioned in the base book, the five guilds are not in any place that I have read.

Later on today I'll take your links and try to find the custom guilds and add them to the additional sources section. I also agree with Jaron and Joe that guilds are probably one of the best areas to begin with. I'd actually like to expand on that as well, and focus on Toreador societies as a whole. In addition to Toreador Guilds there are also mentions of Knightly Orders, Monastic Orders and social cliques. If there is to be anything mechanical, the same mechanics could be used to represent all of them.

Jeremiah, I'll respond more thoroughly later on today. I am not trying to get the Toreador blood magic. I'm also coming at this from a different perspective from these conservative vs liberal terms I've seen bandied about in game. In the end I want more things for Toreador to actually do, something that Clanbook Toreador Revised at least leaves them lacking.

[Ross]

When I was last on Staff under HST Evan, I ran a relatively broad "Toreador Guilds" plot, involving several PCs, at least one of whom is still active.

There was a tattooist guild, a couple of singers guilds, a swordplay guild, even a politician's guild (art of the deal, etc.)

Each had a name, a bit of history, a rank structure, an 'entry task,' and guild specific rewards - in the case of the tattooist guild, successful initiates received a special recipe that could create permanent tattoos on Kindred flesh (since by most flavor text your skin is 'reset' every sundown, barring agg wounds).

The challenge at the time was trying to make the Guilds 'matter' in some way other than simply a merit badge. The notion was to engender some sort of competition/rivalry between the various guilds - or their NPC leaders - which could trickle-down to the PCs; Clan status was a default cookie, but that had to be sparsely doled-out.

The barriers I ran into were

a) Few Toreador PCs - I had only had 4 or 5 active characters at that time, so trying to engender any real factions was difficult

b) Disparate 'arts' - It would have been great to have a PC member of one writer's guild at odds by proxy with a different writer's guild PC, but I had a singer, a fencing enthusiast, a tattooist, a politician, and a painter.

c) In the end, the player/PC has to want to participate - There are only so many meaningful balanced carrots you can dangle in front of a PC to want to either join or further their involvement in a Guild, and if there's no otherwise meaningful competition/interaction component (as above), if the PC loses interest, the plot withers on the vine

That's the sum of my experience. I still have all the Guild stuffs I made up if any of it would be useful to the staff for reference or ideas.

-Ross

[Bertie]

Hey Ross, I think I saw a post you made on it a few years ago. Do you happen to have that public post still? I can try and google for it again. I'd like to include it in the expanded sources section. If you have any more secretive ideas, could you send those in to the storyteller email?

[Jansth]

all I'm thinking here is, "You can lead a player to plot, but you can't make them partake.

[Bubba Kush]

Kevin- the clan book is not lacking, and the clan does not need 'more things to do'. The toreador work just fine, but IT IS UP TO YOU AS A STORY TELLER TO MAKE THE CLAN VALUABLE IN THE EYES OF THE GREATER CAM.

Ross is right in that the guild structure does not work for this Larp, because of the low player count and various art interests, but primarily because a source book is not supposed to be canon, it is a tool for sts to use. Guilds exist in cities only where the toreador have a large enough presence. Please please please look up what guilds did in our own, mortal history. They are social and economic unions, but in YOUR GAME the social and economic are not challenges.

I realize that you aren't proposing blood magic, but you should not put any system on the social side of vampire. No additional mechanics is the bottom line.

I think that, if you want to give the toreador more power, reinvent the guild. There could be a guild for each city, and they compete with one another for prestige and status. Want a mechanical benefit? Have guild access remove restrictions to growing resources, influences, businesses, etc.

[Bubba Kush]

Jan 21, 2014 10:30:47 GMT -8 Jansth said:

all I'm thinking here is, "You can lead a player to plot, but you can't make them partake."

+1 Diane.

[Ross]

AlphaKevin: I think this is the thread you mean

vampst.proboards.com/thread/13342/proposal-toreador-guild-membership

Most of the Guild details there were born out of the plots started for individual PCs, based on their particular vocations. I don't think any if it was ever added to the 'official' Clan write-up on the website, given the lackadaisical outcome of the project.

I'll sift through my gmails, and pass along to the staff anything that might prove useful otherwise.

-Ross

[Jansth]

Maybe I just don't think "Hm... I want to play a character that fights demons and summons war giraffes, I know, I'll play a Toreador." No I think more along the lines of, "I want to role play, socialize, and delve into deep personal plot with other characters, so I'll play a Toreador."

The way I see it, playing a Toreador is all about the personal and player driven plot, not the ST plot. So what I ask is, are there any Toreador players coming to you asking for more plot, because if their not asking, maybe they don't want it?

I know some people don't want plot... this is the first time I've really asked for plot, and at least with one character I sort of had plot shoved down my throat which ultimately lead to my untimely (and particularly upsetting)death so... maybe I just think it's weird to. be asking the whole game what a few people want.

sorry, been thinking about this a lot since we talked last night...

[Victor Vaughn]

This thread is for proposing ideas. Once all of them are taken into account, the staff will present the ones they like best to the community, then we can have a discussion if it is going to be good for the game or not. Please keep your opposition to the idea of change private until the actual change is presented.

[Bubba Kush]

Jan 21, 2014 10:47:34 GMT -8 Victor Vaughn said:

This thread is for proposing ideas. Once all of them are taken into account, the staff will present the ones they like best to the community, then we can have a discussion if it is going to be good for the game or not. Please keep your opposition to the idea of change private until the actual change is presented.

No, sir. Kevin asked for past and present Toreador to voice opinions, so we will.

Please don't try and silence objections, this is an open forum and we're all being respectful.

[Jansth]

I'm sorry, but I was posting my opinion to a publicly posted question that will directly affect me. wouldn't it have been more appropriate NOT to tell me to keep my pinions to myself?

Thank you, I now feel terrible for sharing how I felt...I will refrain from commenting on further discussions.

[Victor Vaughn]

Jan 21, 2014 10:53:49 GMT -8 Jansth said:

I'm sorry, but I was posting my opinion to a publicly posted question that will directly affect me. wouldn't it have been more appropriate NOT to tell me to keep my pinions to myself?

Thank you, I now feel terrible for sharing how I felt...I will refrain from commenting on further discussions.

You and Jeremiah are correct and I am wrong, this is my mistake and I'll politely excuse myself from the conversation.

My apologies.