Post by Tim on Jan 24, 2014 22:44:53 GMT -8
Hello!
I tend to avoid the forums but thought I would add my 2 cents.
I'm not speaking in any official manner as a Staff member. I speak for no one but my self as a Player. With that said I will try and comment on a few things that have come up and maybe a few ways to avoid Ret-Cons. Or I'll just go on a useless tangent. Who knows, its an adventure!
First off I hate Ret-Cons with a fiery passion. I hate having to ruin peoples nights. I'm on staff with the hopes of assisting people with having a good time, not dash all that away. My goal is to avoid Ret-Cons when ever possible.
Now some things that lead to Ret-Cons:
Lores/My PC would never have said that-
I have seen this come up over and over. A player says or does something way outside a PC's lore/nature/Dots/Status/Station/etc. The person then faces status loss, PC death, clan wipes and at worst City Ending Death. The player then argues that with (All the dots ever), or something that if they had known X detail they would never have done this.
We have the Lore system in place so PC's can know things with out the player having to read every book ever written.
When I see these things happen I try do give a player a Int/?? roll, or if they have Common Sense, tell them they maybe acting in a negative way. Yet Staff can not be at every conversation ever. These things happen behind closed doors. Many times staff, like players, have no idea X comment was so bad until further research.
This is a hard call. On one hand a player has invested their XP in order to avoid these things. On the other hand, every one hates Ret-Cons.
I prefer that the involved players find some kind of compromise, maybe the PC said something else or just something "less worse."
If forced into a call I prefer to "stay on the defensive." Getting killed for a grammar slip sucks.
How can we stop Lore Ret-Cons?!?!?!
We try the best we can. I'm open to advice
Powers 1-
There are a lot of powers in play. For many of them there are no rules for how they interact with one another. There are many powers that also trump other powers, or just interfere in some way. Rule calls may have to be made after the scene.
No one player can know for a fact what another player has on their sheet. Heck no single staff member can recall that to! Nor do players want their secrets revealed. (Random fake example, if your a Venture that got Assimite magic from a player and casts Seeing with the Skies eyes you don't want other people to know)
A power that a player uses, and thinks is unbeatable, may in fact have a very easy mundane method to get around. Wraiths, Scry, Cameras, Disciplines, players have a lot of ways to get information. Some of these bypass the best of defenses.
Some of our players are some crafty little buggers, I have been floored by some things I have seen people do.
Players dislike it when we say "It fails" or "something stops it." But lets flip that around, do you want staff to give away knowledge of all your cookies? If your planning on taking out X player do you want staff to be like, no sorry it don't happen Bob used X power to stop you. One might argue that staff only need name the power used but then that can be a huge "hint" at who it was.
If a player must know then I prefer that player talk to a PA or an RA about this. Then that PA/RA can ask staff get then return with a. "Sorry its legit."
Got off on a tangent, sorry... Where I was going:
Due to powers, perceptions or whole scenes can be run differently (Damn Ravnos...) for each person and witness. That leads to different accounts, confusion and requests for Ret-Cons.
Who's correct? Sometimes everyone...
Powers 2-
Sometimes scenes just can NOT have happened, period. Some power was in play, some ritual was cast that gives more successes, a ritual component was missing that people for got to account for, the target PC never shook hands/took of mask/talked even if the player forgot and did so.
Sometimes these things are caught right away, some times they linger for awhile. Everyone hates it when this happens but it does.
Its also hard to deny a stamped card/power that some other ST did last week or last decade (Yes we have to deal with cards/plots from a LLLLOOOOONNNNGGGGGG time ago)
I would prefer that players come to an agreement instead of having to just Ret-Con the whole thing. But what can't always happen, and again I would side with the defensive.
So how can we stop Ret-Cons?!?! (this goes for Staff and Players)
1) Read the power/merit your buying: You would be amazed at the amount of times I get told that "No I never read it before, but I know it works THIS way." Don't trust another players/staff's summary of what it does. We are all wrong at times.
2) Understand the power: Yup, totally different then reading it. Re-read it, ask questions on the forums, request a clarification, talk to staff/RA/Friends about how you think it works.
3) Keep a copy of powers with you: Keep a PDF on your phone, write on a card, include clarifications from the website! One of the main goals of getting those tablets was for staff to have all the books on PDF so can can look these things up. Players can request to borrow a tablet as well.
Note: I have a solution(s) to this that I have been working on and off for a while. I'm sure many people will love/hate it. Stay tuned.
4) Understand that you never know who's watching you/using things on you. Don't do things IC unless you want there to be repercussions. All Kindred are paranoid.
5) When you start a scene tell the ST's you have X power active, are using Y ritual. Then ask the ST if they know what that is. We get super overwhelmed! Sometime we nod and say yes but are lost in thought about other things. We might then ask to read that power though.
6) Remind the ST you have some kinda sight power. Yes we forget you can see everything that ever happened at blah location. Walk up to an ST and let them know you see everything at X location. Ask staff to make an announcement that all scenes run in X area need an ST. Heck do it your self, player trust here.
7) Don't fight when asked for a sheet/card. We are just trying to get facts. Heck this may even get you a "get out of jail free" roll. Common sense rocks....
8) Card or it never happened. Did you just witness X person insult the Prince? Saw that just now was the best time ever to take a picture? Got a blood bond? Maybe a hair? If you know for a fact your going to use that against someone then get it on a stamped card ASAP! So many Ret-Cons come from "Well I saw/did this but no I have no proof." Also staff has zero methods available to us to get the truth 2 months after the event, not taking into account if no ST was even present.
9) Be a courteous assassin. No joke here. If your planning to off some one and you see the perfect moment. Walk up to the player and tell them, hey we need to run a scene. We get requests for Ret-Cons due to secret ninja style attacks.
10) If you play with their heads, let them know. We get this from time to time. "X person could never have done that, I dominated them!" This can be a player trust issue but Ret-Cons break trust even more.
11) If your going to do something important in a scene, give us a summary. If we know to watch out for powers or other things then there is less of a chance to Ret-Con later because of them.
12) What you think is important info might not be to others. We maybe focusing on the fact player X was dominated, staked, shot, etc. but your going to cause major havoc with a slip a persons name or a stolen snow globe. Let us know, get a card for it. What is tiny useless information for us is PC ending for others.
13) Request the ST take notes. Totally legit here. Some people have great memories others don't. People I run scenes for will see me do it from time to time. Again things I think are unimportant are not to others. If I'm not writing a detail down, it maybe lost later.
14) Staff's try and write AAR's (After Action Reports) after each game, sometimes we can loose XP if we don't! We may run 5-30 scenes in a night. Each one then gets a report. Sometimes we forget details though. Leading into...
15) Request a review. There is nothing wrong in asking a ST to go over a scene again to ensure all details are correct. Heck you can even send in an AAR of your own to staff if you think a scene was important enough.
16) Super important? Ask to see the notes of the scene that was just done. No one wants to give away secrets so you don't get all the details but you can request your own. Do this RIGHT as the scene ends.
17) Understand that staff is not omnipresent. If there's was no ST present we have no idea what just happened. If you see an action or over hear something ask that player to write it down. Its a player trust thing but we are not all evil back stabbers, we just play one.
18) Think of a compromise, talk to the other players. I'm sure we all would rather do that then Ret-Con everything. Talk it out with the other players, staff does not always have to do all the talking. If both parties came up to me and said "we need a Ret-Con, but can it just be this?" I would weep with joy.
19) Ask the other players if you can take notes during the scene. I used to do it as a player, I have a bad memory. Then you can even compare notes later and REALLY give it to that trouble-sum Kindred. Heck get them stamped even.
20) Kinda goes with the above but, don't always rely on staff. We get slammed some times. We forget. We loose things. We are people. If you can think of a method to help solve this, ask, then use it.
21) If your going to witness/scry/spy on a scene, then BE at the scene. Don't request a summary later, don't request video tapes later. "No it can't end that way since I could have stopped it a X time" is not a fun Ret-Con.
22) Video tapes/recordings. Holy crap I hate these things. "I saw everything at X location 2 months ago. I have a camera on every blade of grass, what did I see?" I have no bloody clue!! I have no clue what you saw 2 seconds ago. Please please please please help us out by finding witnesses with stamped cards. The more help you can give us then the faster we can get this done. If I have to track down "a player in jeans," or a player that has not been to game for a few weeks then understand there maybe issues. Maybe even be ok with, well that tape was already wiped.
23) Interruptions can be OK. We all hate for our RP is get interrupted. But I'm sure every player would rather be interrupted for 30 seconds then loose a whole night of game. Ask them OOC "When you have a moment." Then give the player some time to get to a good stopping point.
24) Don't know what a player did? Ask them! This comes down to player trust. But if you have a video of someone being naughty ask them what you see. We have some awesome honest people here. They may well be a far better source then Staff, after all who do you think staff is going to ask anyway?
I'll stop here.
I want to avoid Ret-Cons far, far more then any player here. After all its us who get to deal with the upset players
I tend to avoid the forums but thought I would add my 2 cents.
I'm not speaking in any official manner as a Staff member. I speak for no one but my self as a Player. With that said I will try and comment on a few things that have come up and maybe a few ways to avoid Ret-Cons. Or I'll just go on a useless tangent. Who knows, its an adventure!
First off I hate Ret-Cons with a fiery passion. I hate having to ruin peoples nights. I'm on staff with the hopes of assisting people with having a good time, not dash all that away. My goal is to avoid Ret-Cons when ever possible.
Now some things that lead to Ret-Cons:
Lores/My PC would never have said that-
I have seen this come up over and over. A player says or does something way outside a PC's lore/nature/Dots/Status/Station/etc. The person then faces status loss, PC death, clan wipes and at worst City Ending Death. The player then argues that with (All the dots ever), or something that if they had known X detail they would never have done this.
We have the Lore system in place so PC's can know things with out the player having to read every book ever written.
When I see these things happen I try do give a player a Int/?? roll, or if they have Common Sense, tell them they maybe acting in a negative way. Yet Staff can not be at every conversation ever. These things happen behind closed doors. Many times staff, like players, have no idea X comment was so bad until further research.
This is a hard call. On one hand a player has invested their XP in order to avoid these things. On the other hand, every one hates Ret-Cons.
I prefer that the involved players find some kind of compromise, maybe the PC said something else or just something "less worse."
If forced into a call I prefer to "stay on the defensive." Getting killed for a grammar slip sucks.
How can we stop Lore Ret-Cons?!?!?!
We try the best we can. I'm open to advice
Powers 1-
There are a lot of powers in play. For many of them there are no rules for how they interact with one another. There are many powers that also trump other powers, or just interfere in some way. Rule calls may have to be made after the scene.
No one player can know for a fact what another player has on their sheet. Heck no single staff member can recall that to! Nor do players want their secrets revealed. (Random fake example, if your a Venture that got Assimite magic from a player and casts Seeing with the Skies eyes you don't want other people to know)
A power that a player uses, and thinks is unbeatable, may in fact have a very easy mundane method to get around. Wraiths, Scry, Cameras, Disciplines, players have a lot of ways to get information. Some of these bypass the best of defenses.
Some of our players are some crafty little buggers, I have been floored by some things I have seen people do.
Players dislike it when we say "It fails" or "something stops it." But lets flip that around, do you want staff to give away knowledge of all your cookies? If your planning on taking out X player do you want staff to be like, no sorry it don't happen Bob used X power to stop you. One might argue that staff only need name the power used but then that can be a huge "hint" at who it was.
If a player must know then I prefer that player talk to a PA or an RA about this. Then that PA/RA can ask staff get then return with a. "Sorry its legit."
Got off on a tangent, sorry... Where I was going:
Due to powers, perceptions or whole scenes can be run differently (Damn Ravnos...) for each person and witness. That leads to different accounts, confusion and requests for Ret-Cons.
Who's correct? Sometimes everyone...
Powers 2-
Sometimes scenes just can NOT have happened, period. Some power was in play, some ritual was cast that gives more successes, a ritual component was missing that people for got to account for, the target PC never shook hands/took of mask/talked even if the player forgot and did so.
Sometimes these things are caught right away, some times they linger for awhile. Everyone hates it when this happens but it does.
Its also hard to deny a stamped card/power that some other ST did last week or last decade (Yes we have to deal with cards/plots from a LLLLOOOOONNNNGGGGGG time ago)
I would prefer that players come to an agreement instead of having to just Ret-Con the whole thing. But what can't always happen, and again I would side with the defensive.
So how can we stop Ret-Cons?!?! (this goes for Staff and Players)
1) Read the power/merit your buying: You would be amazed at the amount of times I get told that "No I never read it before, but I know it works THIS way." Don't trust another players/staff's summary of what it does. We are all wrong at times.
2) Understand the power: Yup, totally different then reading it. Re-read it, ask questions on the forums, request a clarification, talk to staff/RA/Friends about how you think it works.
3) Keep a copy of powers with you: Keep a PDF on your phone, write on a card, include clarifications from the website! One of the main goals of getting those tablets was for staff to have all the books on PDF so can can look these things up. Players can request to borrow a tablet as well.
Note: I have a solution(s) to this that I have been working on and off for a while. I'm sure many people will love/hate it. Stay tuned.
4) Understand that you never know who's watching you/using things on you. Don't do things IC unless you want there to be repercussions. All Kindred are paranoid.
5) When you start a scene tell the ST's you have X power active, are using Y ritual. Then ask the ST if they know what that is. We get super overwhelmed! Sometime we nod and say yes but are lost in thought about other things. We might then ask to read that power though.
6) Remind the ST you have some kinda sight power. Yes we forget you can see everything that ever happened at blah location. Walk up to an ST and let them know you see everything at X location. Ask staff to make an announcement that all scenes run in X area need an ST. Heck do it your self, player trust here.
7) Don't fight when asked for a sheet/card. We are just trying to get facts. Heck this may even get you a "get out of jail free" roll. Common sense rocks....
8) Card or it never happened. Did you just witness X person insult the Prince? Saw that just now was the best time ever to take a picture? Got a blood bond? Maybe a hair? If you know for a fact your going to use that against someone then get it on a stamped card ASAP! So many Ret-Cons come from "Well I saw/did this but no I have no proof." Also staff has zero methods available to us to get the truth 2 months after the event, not taking into account if no ST was even present.
9) Be a courteous assassin. No joke here. If your planning to off some one and you see the perfect moment. Walk up to the player and tell them, hey we need to run a scene. We get requests for Ret-Cons due to secret ninja style attacks.
10) If you play with their heads, let them know. We get this from time to time. "X person could never have done that, I dominated them!" This can be a player trust issue but Ret-Cons break trust even more.
11) If your going to do something important in a scene, give us a summary. If we know to watch out for powers or other things then there is less of a chance to Ret-Con later because of them.
12) What you think is important info might not be to others. We maybe focusing on the fact player X was dominated, staked, shot, etc. but your going to cause major havoc with a slip a persons name or a stolen snow globe. Let us know, get a card for it. What is tiny useless information for us is PC ending for others.
13) Request the ST take notes. Totally legit here. Some people have great memories others don't. People I run scenes for will see me do it from time to time. Again things I think are unimportant are not to others. If I'm not writing a detail down, it maybe lost later.
14) Staff's try and write AAR's (After Action Reports) after each game, sometimes we can loose XP if we don't! We may run 5-30 scenes in a night. Each one then gets a report. Sometimes we forget details though. Leading into...
15) Request a review. There is nothing wrong in asking a ST to go over a scene again to ensure all details are correct. Heck you can even send in an AAR of your own to staff if you think a scene was important enough.
16) Super important? Ask to see the notes of the scene that was just done. No one wants to give away secrets so you don't get all the details but you can request your own. Do this RIGHT as the scene ends.
17) Understand that staff is not omnipresent. If there's was no ST present we have no idea what just happened. If you see an action or over hear something ask that player to write it down. Its a player trust thing but we are not all evil back stabbers, we just play one.
18) Think of a compromise, talk to the other players. I'm sure we all would rather do that then Ret-Con everything. Talk it out with the other players, staff does not always have to do all the talking. If both parties came up to me and said "we need a Ret-Con, but can it just be this?" I would weep with joy.
19) Ask the other players if you can take notes during the scene. I used to do it as a player, I have a bad memory. Then you can even compare notes later and REALLY give it to that trouble-sum Kindred. Heck get them stamped even.
20) Kinda goes with the above but, don't always rely on staff. We get slammed some times. We forget. We loose things. We are people. If you can think of a method to help solve this, ask, then use it.
21) If your going to witness/scry/spy on a scene, then BE at the scene. Don't request a summary later, don't request video tapes later. "No it can't end that way since I could have stopped it a X time" is not a fun Ret-Con.
22) Video tapes/recordings. Holy crap I hate these things. "I saw everything at X location 2 months ago. I have a camera on every blade of grass, what did I see?" I have no bloody clue!! I have no clue what you saw 2 seconds ago. Please please please please help us out by finding witnesses with stamped cards. The more help you can give us then the faster we can get this done. If I have to track down "a player in jeans," or a player that has not been to game for a few weeks then understand there maybe issues. Maybe even be ok with, well that tape was already wiped.
23) Interruptions can be OK. We all hate for our RP is get interrupted. But I'm sure every player would rather be interrupted for 30 seconds then loose a whole night of game. Ask them OOC "When you have a moment." Then give the player some time to get to a good stopping point.
24) Don't know what a player did? Ask them! This comes down to player trust. But if you have a video of someone being naughty ask them what you see. We have some awesome honest people here. They may well be a far better source then Staff, after all who do you think staff is going to ask anyway?
I'll stop here.
I want to avoid Ret-Cons far, far more then any player here. After all its us who get to deal with the upset players
