The Dodge Question

[Loraine DeLaFontaine]

So forever now, I've had the rule that Dodge simply doesn't exist cause it's a stupid thing to have on any White Wolf Character Sheet since Athletics and other combat Abilities are there.

Recently, with our change over to 3rd edition and all, Mark made us a new Character Sheet (Which was awesome cause I didn't even ask) and he changed our Abilities over to 3rd edition.

Persuasion went to Expression, Lore went to Occult and ect.
However, we've never replaced the Dodge placement, there does seem to be a sort of gap in the 'Talents' area.

What do you guys think should be there?

Many of the 3rd edition sheets have Leadership in the Talent area where Changeling placed it in Skills for some reason. We could put Leadership back into Talents and give Changeling back Animal Ken or we could even look at some of the Dark Ages Skills and Talents to fill the space...

[Bruce Outterridge]

I'd be happy to update the template, and the dodge / animal ken / leadership switcharoo would be easy enough. Just let me know what is decided and I'll fix you up a couple to make copies of.

[Makes-No-Sense]

I was told "athletics" would be our dodge for changling...?

[Herve Lemaire]

Athletics is being used as dodge. This question is more for purposes of what abilities should be primaries on the sheet.

[Yngvarr (Cpt Samuels)]

My personal opinion is :

Persuasion to Expression.
Move Leadership to Talents to replace Dodge.
Move Investigation to skills to replace Leadership.
Dreaming Lore to replace Lore. (I'm still convinced this is what it's suppose to be anyway)
Add Occult for Investigation.

Then alphabetize the list.

This will add what I see as the two most important 'missing' abilities. Dreaming Lore and Occult. Plus from a 'realistic' perspective, it makes way more sense for Leadership to be talent and Investigation to be skill.

There's my two cents, don't spend them both in one place.
Dick.

[Moira ap Eiluned]

I agree with Dick on everything except the Lore...I'm still in the "Lore should be secondary and by type, with infinite flexibility" camp, as per Changeling's Player's Guide, p49.

Oh, and I think that Dodge should be an available SECONDARY, like Sense Deception. This would be a good secondary talent for people who can't toss a football or run cross country, but have a great instinct for taking cover when fecal matter hits the rotating blades...or rather, the cover over the rotating blades, as Mythbusters showed that hitting the blades themselves directly doesn't actually do much...

[Alden J. Blethen]

I think that leadership is a skill not a talent.

[Yngvarr (Cpt Samuels)]

Nov 21, 2010 19:38:40 GMT -8 Moira ap Eiluned said:

I agree with Dick on everything except the Lore...I'm still in the "Lore should be secondary and by type, with infinite flexibility" camp, as per Changeling's Player's Guide, p49.

Just because it's in the columns on the Character Sheet doesn't mean it has to be made a Primary Skill. It is just an ability that many characters have, so makes sense to add it to the list, the way I see it. It is still a Lore, and I'd imagine it would still be bought as a Lore (I.E. Secondary skill).

Nov 21, 2010 19:38:40 GMT -8 Moira ap Eiluned said:

Oh, and I think that Dodge should be an available SECONDARY, like Sense Deception.

I think this is an excellent point, and for what it's worth, I second this notion.

Nov 21, 2010 20:03:45 GMT -8 Alden J. Blethen said:

I think that leadership is a skill not a talent.

Could probably be argued either way, but it isn't really the point of this topic. Which column an ability is in, doesn't really effect anything since the teacher rules do not discriminate between any ability other than Lores. My concern is that the columns balance, so the character sheet evens out.

[Sarah]

I do not want a re-re looking character sheet. Just saying. I like your choices Dick.

Too clarify what I am saying, it really doesn't matter is on the sheet as long as it is balanced and we don't have weird gaps. It's easier to shift and add things then it is to take it away from all of the abilities.

[Alden J. Blethen]

Actually Dick, it does. Not in the cost department, but in the mechanics department. If somebody doesn't have any dots in a skill the difficulty is higher, if they don't have a dot in a talent, there is no raise in difficulty. I know you know this Dick, it's more to illustrate my point. Leadership is something that if you don't have any skill in, it sure is tougher to use. If anything should be moved to Talents it would be Stealth, IMHO.

[Yngvarr (Cpt Samuels)]

Nov 23, 2010 12:44:28 GMT -8 Alden J. Blethen said:

Actually Dick, it does. Not in the cost department, but in the mechanics department. If somebody doesn't have any dots in a skill the difficulty is higher, if they don't have a dot in a talent, there is no raise in difficulty. I know you know this Dick, it's more to illustrate my point. Leadership is something that if you don't have any skill in, it sure is tougher to use. If anything should be moved to Talents it would be Stealth, IMHO.

If you want to take it from this perspective, then I'm even more in favor of of my choices. People of any age can be taught how to make a gilly suit and use it. People of any age can be taught how to walk so you stay in a person's blind spot. The majority of Leadership is confidence, which is very hard to teach after childhood. Hence, I prefer Leadership in Talents.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Here is your solution:

Move Leadership back where it belongs to Talents. Move Investigation to skills. Add Academics back to knowledges. Having a catch-all knowledge is a beautiful and wonderful thing.

(BTW: this is Jaron. Haven't made an account for my changeling character yet so this is sent from my vampire character).

[Brendan]

Nov 23, 2010 22:34:30 GMT -8 Yngvarr (Cpt Samuels) said:

Nov 23, 2010 12:44:28 GMT -8 Alden J. Blethen said:

Actually Dick, it does. Not in the cost department, but in the mechanics department. If somebody doesn't have any dots in a skill the difficulty is higher, if they don't have a dot in a talent, there is no raise in difficulty. I know you know this Dick, it's more to illustrate my point. Leadership is something that if you don't have any skill in, it sure is tougher to use. If anything should be moved to Talents it would be Stealth, IMHO.

If you want to take it from this perspective, then I'm even more in favor of of my choices. People of any age can be taught how to make a gilly suit and use it. People of any age can be taught how to walk so you stay in a person's blind spot. The majority of Leadership is confidence, which is very hard to teach after childhood. Hence, I prefer Leadership in Talents.

I'm in full agreement with Dick. Leadership isn't primarily a learned thing. I hate to admit this, but I haven't had time to read the material some people have shown me on leading... yet a couple people have mentioned they've seen a change in my baron. That change didn't come because I learned more about how to be a leader, it came because I was comfortable bringing my charisma to bear.

In my opinion, anyone with a force of personality can lead. Sure, there's techniques and tricks to make you do it more effectively, like I've been learning about from Jason, but for the most part, it's about your natural charisma. As I understand it, this makes it more or less a talent.

Again, to summarize, I think Dick's right.