Responding to Schetzles

[David Price]

I didn't want to do this but every time I calm down after seeing one of their posts they post another and bring me up as an example again. I'm not, however, going to add to the questions thread, so this can be its own little accusation thread if it wants to be (and eventually get locked and moved to the rant board because that's just how I expect it'll go)

To provide some context to my "Come up with it yourself..."

Jane, your character's derangement was based on Synesthesia. You came to me and said that your character had heard from Kaine's character that embracing one's derangement led to enlightenment. So you decided to go out in the city, roll around in mud, lick walls and surround yourself with sensations to see what happens.

I recall spending a decent amount of time trying to figure out what you wanted out of this. I got nothing other than "something". There were no other characters involved, there was no goal, this was purely "I want storyteller attention."

The thing about Malkavian insight is it's extremely personal. It's about what happens to the way you think. I can't tell you how to think. I'm not going to tell you how to play your character. So, yes, I suggested you figure out how your character would develop her brand of insight on her own. Because there wasn't anything I could add to that scene.

Chris - The reason I'm not upset that you, or a lot of people, went to Werewolf is because they're extremely different games, and they should be. Some people are going to like one world better than another. Werewolf is supposed to be the "We're all on one side, fighting the big fight against the overwhelming darkness." game. That _is_ the story you like. You belong over there. Stop being upset that vampire isn't that and enjoy werewolf.

Our vampire game is the only game I've _ever_ played in that has political opportunities in character. Where backstabbing and back room deals actually happen day to day. That's what I play vampire for. I don't need a storyteller for anything other than feeding checks and thaum rolls. And I think it's amazing.

I'm not trying to knock plot. I don't mind it happening. The big epic huge plots like demons attacking and pillars of flame on the bridge are a bit excessive, especially since they interfere with game for the people that aren't into that sort of thing. But smaller ongoing things like hunters or the occasional sabbat incursion, or even better the political or social injections from outside- those are great. But the thing is, all of these plots are things that you don't run into just by sitting around and waiting for them.

The thing that bugs me is everybody acting like plot and character development is solely the storyteller's responsibility.

Every werewolf character automatically comes with a long term goal- defeat the Wyrm. Awesome. You have plot. Go.

Every vampire character _should_ come with a long term goal. But it's not imposed by the system. It's the character and player's responsibility to have that goal. Arlo had a goal- beat the game. Price had a goal- reform the Tremere. The ridiculous, impossible goals that measurable progress can be made in- these are things that can drive a character for years and never need a storyteller. Make one!

Storytellers can help a player come up with these sorts of goals, but they should never make them _for_ you. I would've been happy trying to help Jane come up with something like that. But everything I got from that conversation was that she was just looking for something to happen because she was bored. If I was incorrect, sorry.

Licking walls is not a long term goal. Licking walls does not make plot happen to you.

Could I have spent more time with Jane and fixed the situation? Probably. Sorry for that. Could she have made a character that didn't require going to an ST and saying "I'm licking walls! Make something interesting happen?" Yes.

Could you guys have not used a new election as an excuse to bash the previous staff? Oh hell yes. Acceptable: "When you claim story is important to you, does this mean that plots for individuals will be given attention?" NOT Acceptable: "Aaron and Broney fail at making plot, how are you not them?"

[Jenn]

Thank you, Broney.

[Styx]

Well Said, Broney.

[Skarr]

I nominate Broney for HST... of Anacordes!

[Jane]

I was told point blank by HST Aaron that he didn't want to tell my characters long term plot, that I could learn and do things, but when it came down to it and was making tests nothing would would happen, even if I got a large # of success I would not get anything. I'm not talking about evidence that just ins't there in an investigation, I'm talking about trying to understand quantum physics Which is BS. Asking for description of what something smells like is not unreasonable. Evan did it plenty of times. Just because you don't wanna, or think it's not what vampire is about is not a vaild reason to essentially tell someone to f**k off and that you don't care.

Maybe because you've never played Werewolf you don't understand the politics of it, that there is more meta plot then just kill the wyrm. I went to werewolf and approached the STs and said "My character is going to do this and I got scenes"!!! it was amazing!!! it was fun, it was roleplaying!!! I'm not saying that my character got what she wanted. She got f**ked over, but it was some the best roleplay I have ever had. It was vivid and alive and I wanted to go to game the next week to find out what was going to happen.

So step off your high horse and think about it from another perspective, maybe you as a player don't want storyteller involvement with your character and plots, but there are some of us that do. My characters have been f**ked over so hard my STs in ways that I wouldn't have come up with seen and it was fun/exciting so excuse me for asking a "STORYTELLER" to tell a "STORY"!!

[Webmonkey]

Broney, the idea that you didn't understand what was being asked isn't a surprise to me. You've been a very 'keep to myself' player for a long time. You even insisted on continuing to play your character while being on my staff at the outset of my first run, something that it became very clear after a very short period of time was a bad conflict of interest, and one of the key reasons why we parted as co-storytellers. You were certain that you could compartmentalise your brain from plot and only be available for the discussion of rules, and the rest of the staff more or less felt like while you actually might be able to do that, the appearance of impropriety was not worth the risk. Hence we parted. Not as amicably as perhaps we would have liked, you insisting all the time that being allowed to sit in at staff meetings AND play Arlo Braven wasn't a conflict of interest. In retrospect, no staff would ever have probably considered allowing this type of thing now, but I often felt that you carried a little ill will toward me over that decision, regardless.

Here again, we see this separation come to light again. Plot and story are treated here as a hinderance. And that in my view, it's the 'only way to fly'. Completely untrue. I've always thought that exterior plot did serve a useful purpose in a vampire game, to give some players something to spend some brain cycles on, to releave a little pressure from some of the PvP, and to give the world a feeling like once your character steps out of Elysium, you aren't jut walking into a black, undeveloped void. That there are streets filled with bums and hookers and drug dealers and scents and sights and shadows and here and there something that goes bump in the night that adds a little horror to the tale of personal horror that Vampire is about.

And the assumption being made is that my opinion, and Jane's opinion are that those plot moments and exterior stories are the only good things about playing in a game, of any type, be it werewolf or vampire. Not so. Not implied.

My eyes were opened recently to how rich the Werewolf world can be, particularly in regard to politics and 'the rules'. In a larp, it's as rich as the players want it to be. Just so. Very diverse, very surprising, and pretty tense at times. Moreso because there is less of an expectation of being shanked all the time like in Vampire, which makes betrayals all the more shocking and their ripples last longer. But I and other long time Vampire players have looked down their noses at Werewolf for a long time, thinking it an inferior setting and game. I was wrong, but I don't expect to be able to convince anyone of that unless they play, because quite simply, no one could have convinced me of it. I had to try it and see for myself. It was, in a word, refreshing. So refreshing. And I gained a lot of perspective on Vampire from playing in werewolf as well, both as a Storyteller and as a player. I learned the value of being, and playing 'the new kid', which I simply could not have gotten otherwise. A very nice experience.

But there's that, more insidious assumption being made here, that Werewolf stories are more cartoon-like than Vampire stories, which are more 'real'. Wrong again.

Broney, you paint a picture of my storytelling in which there are always michael bay like explosions and unusual exterior threats that are gouche and unwieldy expressions of my need for attention, instead of a slowly growing plot - but you forget, the demon plot was player driven - player driven from low-level characters in fact, a group of caitiff and rose to prominence because of how things went awry when Elders (players again) stepped into the middle of it and 'scuffed the circle', letting a small time NPC free to make deals. You forgot how characters throughout the domain sold little pieces of themselves for power - not beause they too wanted big explosions or pillars of fire (They had no idea what they were getting themselves into remember - hindsight wasn't a tool of theirs) but because they wanted one enemy to suffer, or be les effective. As the plot grew and grew, it was because of the Jyhad. The effective climax was neither out of context, nor illogical, nor for the sake of cool explosions.

But you didn't like it. And of the 80 regulars we had then (up from around 20-25 when our staff first began, thanks very much) you were one of the very few who didn't enjoy it.

Now as to your statements about Jane wanting Storyteller attention, of course she wanted some attention. She wanted to know how her derangement fit in with the world your staff was creating. YOu answered her: "We're not creating one. Make it up yourself".

We wanted to dip our toes into the world your staff created. You didn't want to make one. You wanted us to make it up ourselves.

Ok. So.

That's the difference in our play styles, and our storytelling styles.

But....

It isn't. Not really. Because I don't want to make up the whole world when I'm a storyteller.

And I don't want you to do it, as a player.

And I don't want to make up the whole world myself as a player.

I want to collaberate. We want to collaberate.

You didn't meet Jane halfway. Neither did HST Aaron. Neither did many of his initial crop of ASTs.

That's ultimately, why we thought the game sucked, and ultimately, in both an OOC and IC capacity, why we decided the game wasn't for us.

[David Price]

I don't know whether you actually mean your posts to continue to be insulting, Chris, but they kind of are. I'm going to assume you didn't mean them to be.

I am aware that trying to play Arlo and be on your staff at the same time was a bad idea. I had originally intended it to just be a rules advocate kind of situation, but as it turned out your staff at the time really needed a full time rules staffer (I recall having to convince the staff that handing out chi abilities would be a bad idea). I had misjudged what was going to be necessary from me in that situation. I don't have any ill will towards parting in that situation.

And I don't think that Werewolf is a more cartoon-like game. Or inferior. Or only combat. I'm sure that there's tons of other plots and stories. My original statement was that Werewolf starts with the _base_ story that you like. That's why I'm saying I'm glad you found werewolf. I expect you to like it better! It's just not for me.

And I'm aware the demon plot was started with players. The Zymogenetics "Hit marks shoot laser beams through building walls" can be blamed on Arlo trying to raid the place, too. I regret handling that as a player the way I did. There were people that were extremely excluded from both situations, though, and many more who, despite enjoying it at the time, thought back and said, "Wait, HITmarks? Wasn't that a bit much?" A majority? Probably not. Do I expect those people to change your storytelling style? Nope, not a bit. Doesn't really bother me.

I wasn't trying to bash your storyteller style and I never said anything about your need for attention. I'm saying that there are people (and I am one of them), that considers big plot/mass combat/masquerade-breaking NPC-scenes to be a distraction from the political game.

I tried to meet Jane halfway but I couldn't see her side of the bridge. It happens. Sorry.

And I never, at any point, to anybody, said "Fuck off, I don't care." Even after this treatment from you two, I'm still not going to say it. Because that's not how I treat people. I feel kind of bad for you two burning your bridges- the people who've responded to this post with thanks aren't the only ones thanking me or annoyed with you. Please try to start having respect for people and have polite conversations before you stop having friends here.

[Webmonkey]

I also want to throw this out to the applauders of Broney's considered response: for months, Jane and I have been a Gibson seeking a dialogue and resolution to these issues with the PAs, in email, behind the scenes. Never did Brian have a word to say to us before he was quoted in public. Not a single email, not a word in private, nothing - total radio silence. I ask those that applauded his words to consider that complete, nose in the air snubbing before you give the former AST so much credit for being as balanced and reasonable as he likes to paint himself. This has been going on for almost a year, and only now does he address other players couched in the verbiage of explaining concepts to those who just don't understand his way of thinking and were clearly simply begging for his rockstar attention. It's a pretty picture, but it isn't so.

[David Price]

If you'd contacted me directly, I would've responded directly (with likely all the same as above, so it's not like you would've liked it any better than what happened). You contacted staff, of which I was merely a single member, which involved PAs and as far as I could tell was resolved by other staffers (not to your satisfaction, admittedly). And then you posted publicly, so I responded publicly. Me initiating the conversation only would've served to piss you off. So I left it alone.

That isn't a snub. That's a "This doesn't involve me." Which it didn't until you started directly insulting me. And I'm not seeking rockstar attention. I didn't want to put this post up in the first place, and I ignored your first several shots at me. But when you keep bringing me up, I'm going to defend myself.

I'm having a harder time convincing myself you're not being deliberately insulting now, though.

[Webmonkey]

Look Broney, I was annoyed months ago for a variety of reasons. They were reasonable expectations too, things like, regular tests being ready and available as they had been previously under the last several staffs. Things like when a staff has an idea about things they want to do, and they know its directly going to have an effect on certain players, that they take a sec to have a discussion with the players involved, and that if the discussion seems to need to last more than 30 seconds, that a little time be made. I bet if you had taken the time to explain your philosophy to Jane months back, she might have felt that at least she knew where you stood. She might still have disagreed. She might have asked for a storyteller that was interested in helping her character explore her derangement. She might have asked your opinion on how best to do that. I don't know. All I do know, is that *without* that conversation then, it stands up *now* as a poor piece of storytelling.

I genuinely think that Aaron's staff was done a great disservice by Aaron's policy of however he dealt with his PA's, which, as far as I can tell for the first half of his run, was to completely ignore them. Giveneave to act in the same way, who could expect you to follow any other example? I don't know what made the staff you were a part of forget to do common weekly rolls every week. I don't know what made them not quite willing to go the creative mile to come up with an interesting group of stories for this player or that player. Is that insulting?

Evan I think, tried not to let that Lack of give a damn, that total apathy to be concerned that Jane and I felt like we could do no right by the staff to spite our efforts and constant volunteerism. He tried, really tried. But he ultimately failed. After awhile, even though he agreed our concerns were reasonable it seemed like the staff was going to do their level best to simply ignore our concerns and focus on the people with lower expectations or that they liked more, or that agreed with them more often.

[Jane]

I have no knowledge of a compromise, this is the very first time that I have hear the point of view of "any" of the staff involved. I have spoken with Evan, but the staffs perspective never came back to me. The potential to have a meeting or even a conversation about the issues was never discussed, let alone a date and time we could all sit down together and talk about it. So please do not say that you have ever offered me a compromise, because "we" have yet to truly discuss it.

We haven't burnt our bridges. The people that they are connected to have finally come back and stepped on them only to find that they have rotted away with neglect. If they examine the wood that makes up the bridge closely they shall find that the insects of long term unresolved conflict have eaten holes throughout.

If you or any other individual that is involved wants to sit down and talk with me so be it, but don't expect me to be anything other than angry after almost a year of being ignored.

And honestly even if you had said, "The tree smells like maple candy, 2nd street road smells like burnt hair, the ground smells like pumpkin pie, and every road cone you have touched in the entire domain smells like blood." I would have run with it and had a good time investigating and pulling others in, but what I got was no where near that descriptive I got, "a cop asks you to leave" THAT WAS IT! When asked does any part of the domain smell odd or good I was told to, "make it up myself"

I didn't have to be tied to a plot, it didn't have to be all meaningful in the 'big picture', it didn't have to take more than 10 mins, it just had to matter enough to you to put some creative thought into it and I would have run wild with it. I mentioned what I was doing to an AST that had just stepped down and I got, "Oh that would have been so much fun to run, I could have driven you off the deep end"

This is why I think having a list of what types of scenes the storytellers like running would be a good thing, that way people could go hey, so and so like running derangements, and so and so like running politicking backstabby-ness and so and so likes running anything to do with babies on spikes, or whatever. That way if you weren't interested in to begin with I would know and look to someone else who would be and know who that someone else is.

All in all if you really want to resolve this conflict, give me a call/PM/email so we can set up a time to meet.

[guest]

Maybe those complaining should really take a look at how they as a group have treated the staff and the people around them over the years and realize that maybe, just maybe if they were mistreated over the years here- there might just be a reason staff members and PAs may not want to deal with those players.

Jane should mostly be exempt from this, because she has, as far I can tell, been mostly reasonable.

Chris totally deserves to reap any and all benefits of his behavior.vampst

[Jane]

I would like to mention that your post was not the only post that was removed, both ben and mine were too. So don't try and get on a high horse about abuse of the board management.

I talked to no less than 3 current vampire players today who told me that, "we are on the same page as you and chris and we have suffered through hell for a year in the hopes that when it was over we could try and make it better." When I replied, "it would be nice for you to post that support." they responded with in essence, "I see you have a giant target and I don't want one, but I'm totally with you." Werewolf has more players in it than Vampire, think about that. THAT HASN'T EVER HAPPENED BEFORE ... The legacy of this term of staff is that Vampire died, no one wants to admit it but it's true.

Antoher point is... Any person who has been summarily ignored for a year would be livid! Would try and make sure it doesn't happen again. They aren't going to be nice, why the f**K should they be!!!

You, Toni are not an aggrieved party here, you have gotten what you wanted, undivided ST attention for the last year. You have lost friends over things that have happened in the last year and are set to loose more if you can't pull your head out of your a** and look at the world around you, and see what a s**t hole Vampire has become. It has become that way by sheer NEGLECT! That droves of long term players have left seeking simply a place to have FUN!!! FUN!!! is what Vampire is missing, it's drama, it's a fight to get anything, it sheer undeniable putrescence. Some may have contributed and tried to keep it a float, but when your leader doesn't give a damn it's... well... hard to stay motivated...

Ben came down to pitch to those who were eligible to vote in the Vampire elections, when has that ever happened, I think never. There was an under the breath response by someone of, "not worth my time." Taking a minute to write on a piece of paper who runs Vampire next is meaningless to some, people who used to give a damn about Vampire.

Because honestly any of the candidates running is better than current, the only place it could go is up, vampire is currently below rock bottom, it has smoked so much crack it is twitching on the floor and bleeding out of all it's orifices.

It takes work to make the game run, it doesn't happen on it's own, it is not 100% player driven, you can just stand back and adjudicate the rules, you have to be present, you have be thoughtful, you have to give of yourself to others, to have to put yourself out there, but most importantly, YOU HAVE TO TRY!!!!!!!

I said it in my other post and I'll say it again, if you want to live in a dream world where the STs did nothing wrong you go ahead to do that, but it will be a dream world. Am I saying I have always been polite and nice, nope, but I have tried over and over and over again to simply HAVE A MEETING TO TALK ABOUT IT and have gotten silence. I know you would have flipped your s**t a long time ago if you were in my position, I've seen it happen. So go and live in your dream world, us here in reality will be around if you ever decide to come back.

[Jane]

Oh and Toni, maybe you should read Chris's post about the removal and not just jump to conclusions, you might learn something that way. Listening to people it's a concept, but hey why not try it?

[Webmonkey]

Nov 27, 2010 22:04:02 GMT -8 @satyavati said:

Chris-

Since you felt (yet again!) the need to abuse your position as Webmonkey to take down anything that might possibly threaten your strange little ego, while leaving up your own fanatical ramblings, I will re-post my response to your continued ass-hattery.

Dear Toni,

Thanks for following my request to re-post this in another thread other than the one related to the election directly. Still should have probably gone straight to the rant board.

Not thanks for:

Calling me a fanatic rambler and an asshat. Your prize is, you've now done just as Broney suggested would be done, and assured that this thread has been relagated to the rant board. Now that I've addressed the name calling, please allow me to address the other ways in which you think I've been immature.

As a very long term player who has already discussed your behavior multiple times before with you, your posts in this thread are childish, and mostly passive aggressive (altho sometimes lacking in the passive and just getting the aggressive and even down right falsified versions of events).

So in the above paragraph, you've:

1. Acted condescending, as if you were my mommy.

Please allow me to address that: You aren't. You also aren't more knowledgable in regard to the subject at hand (what makes a vampire game good or poor) as you've never been on staff as an AST or HST for ECC. You are essentially the worst kind of critic: the armchair quarterback. Please don't think I'm calling you nams here though. I'm using an established metaphor to describe how you like to criticise me without having walked a mile in my shoes. Admittedly, using one metaphor to describe another isn't ideal, but you get the point. Being so smart and all.

2. Claimed I've behaved childishly, after calling me names, like asshat, like we're on the schoolyard, when as annoyed as I've been with events both recent and past, I didn't.

3. Called me passive agressive, but lately, downright agressive.

I feel I've been rather direct. So direct in fact, that it has made some folks uncomfortable. As for agressive, I have never threatened harm against any staffer, unless you think 'harm' is the same thing as voicing my opinion. You might think it, but voicing my opinion isn't harm. It's a free country, and I am free to disagree with the policies of the staff as I wish in the public forums I established to do so. That doesn't mean people will always like me, or what I have to say. I have confidence that people that are actually my friends will stay that way, and those who aren't won't. Or they might disagree with me, or agree to disaggree, or open a dialogue, or sing a song and do a dance. The world is full of possibilities.

3. Claimed I've falsified events. By that you must mean your little rant about the fairness of the Tiki Tom space outstripping the Gangrel Cave in it's spiffy location. It's true, I heard that second hand. The person that mentioned to me that you were a major proponent in calling for Jane and I to be kicked out of the space that we'd agreed with the staff we could use half of every other night of the week, could have lied to me. I don't know why they would, but the possibility exists, certainly. If that's so, please forgive me, you have my simple sincere apology. If you do know who's bright idea it was to kick Jane and I out of a space we were using without giving us even a conversation about it, well, do me a favor and tell them they done fucked up. Tell them we think that was rude and unfair, and against the agreement we'd made previously in good faith. Pass that along for me will you? I've heard you're well connected.

I don't, however, feel like you're speaking from a postion of having any sort of moral high ground, as you are known to pass on gossip often. There is an old OOC adage I learned long ago: If you want to have a secret spread everywhere, just tell Toni. I'm not sad to say, I've used the adage to some effect both in and out of character many times. It can be quite useful occasionally.

You previous treatment of the majority of the past ST crews has been appalling, and your behavior towards players as an ST has been completely out of line.

Well, those are an awful lot of generalizations, which I'm sure you might attempt to come up with specific examples for perhaps? And then I could rebut them with what really happened, much to your embarasment I suppose, or perhaps to mine. But there are a lot of things I can't be acused of:

Apathy. Not giving a damn.
The least Events of any staff in a half decade.
The least stories told of any staff in a half decade.
The most ASTs quit in any recent memory (the whole staff has cycled!)
The worst attendence by far!
The most outright denials of wrong doing.
The worst history of email response.
The worst history of weekly tests being on-time and relavant, and so on and so on and so on... it's a laundry list, like the Guiness Book of World Records entry, if they had one for a Vampire LARP sucking in a bad way.

And you, cheering this staff along, deriding it's detractors blindly, without being party to the months and months and months of emails seeking resolution, or even conversation. I think that's not your best choice there.

Did you know Aaron refused to meet with Jane and I? To even talk with us like rational human beings? He couldn't spare the time, apparently. Of course you do. You know everything.

You sir are far to self-absorbed, and entitled over some feeling that this is somehow "your" game, and no one else can do it right and I for one am sick of it.

Yes, self absorbed. Self-absorbed Schetzle, who worked 60hrs at the first Haunted House to get us the space you enjoy, and almost 100hrs the last one. Self-absorbed Schetzle who spends $30 a month + yearly domain registration fees (that's over $400 a year) to keep the Vampire site up and running, when I don't even play in it. Self-absorbed Schetzle who donated over 100 food items to the Noel House last year, even though the XP awards were capped, 100 blankets the year before, who delivered the blankets. Self-Absorbed Schetzle, who wandred from possible play-site to possible play-site with Jenn and Jeff Meaders last year, hat in hand, trying to secure us somewhere, anywhere to play. Self-absorbed Schetzle who's been to every single Prop-Shop clean-up that has ever occured on behalf of any game. Self-absorbed Schetzle who has loaned stands and curtains to Vampire players for Vampire events he wasn't even playing in and could get no XP for. Self-absorbed Schetzle who brought his tent to your wedding reception when he heard it might rain.

I mean dood. Clearly I'm all about me, right. Who is this guy wanting, like occasional plot for his character? What does he think this is? A storytelling game, with storytellers in it telling stories? Nonsense I say!

Are you sick of it? I'm starting to understand. I'm starting to get sick of it too.

This is not "your" game you did not single handedly save it. It would have gone on with or without you and still does. Quite well actually

Really? I'm shocked, *shocked* to find out that the game hasn't crumbled under my firm tutelage. Oh No! Ok I really can't keep this up. You seem, lady, to have lost the plot. Because quite frankly, you aren't playing in anything I would *ever* claim as my game. My game is one in which the Storytellers tell stories. My game is one in which the players collaborate on those stories. My game is one in which there's a real commitment to mid-week interactions, my game is one where email is returned on time. My game is one in which there are far more yes's than no's from both players and staff. My game is one in which it's our game. All of ours, equally, and with generous give and take.

It hasn't been that game in a long time, and you're a die hard supporter of that kind of 'my way or the highway' mentality. Which is the weakest of sauces. I mean I've been actually listening to former and current and potential future storytellers try to justify why they should not be telling stories! Wow. I feel like I'm in bizzarro world here. I mean look up the word storyteller for me, will ya?

I remember a conversation we once had when you finally realized you might be turning into "that guy". Well you have a pretty good start and it needs to stop. You are pissed because you didn't get your way and didn't get an ST to hold your hand through some story you could have done all on your own, because with as many players as we have at game- apparently you are more important based on anything you do above any other player who goes above and beyond.

I didn't think I needed to be super-more-special-sexy-important to get an on-time and relevant weekly roll result for, say Oracular, when I was playing a Malkavian oracle.

I didn't think the Nosferatu players needed to go above and beyond to get a Nos Info check.

I didn't think any player needed special treatment to get an email answered in a timely manner.

Apparently I was wrong. And apparently, my version of above and beyond, volunteerism of time, effort, money when I could afford it, skills when they were relevant and any other support I could possibly come up with, for the games over-all, was the wrong kind of above and beyond.

I have some theories as to what the 'right kind' of above and beyond is, but I think the revelation might prove too crude even for the rant board, so I'll just stop here.

Lord help Jeffrey if he wins because then we get to see you abuse him and Jennifer publicly for yet another year.

Once again, we're at a point where we could banter specifics, and I could tell you about the many discussions Jennifer and Jeffrey have had about the issues that came up between us during that period, and how each one was resolved in turn, even though tempers flared, but you already know how that all worked out, and you're certainly not being inflammatory without all the facts, because you know everything, and you tried in vain to teach me all I know about being a good person, but I was beyond your sainted help.

Or, that last part about Sainthood is total bullshit. I leave it for the gentle reader to decide.

It may be only because you are the webmonkey that one of these crews hasn't kicked your ass out of game, because so help me if I was ever in that position you would have been kicked to the curb long ago.

Well I'll certainly be joining a long line of your former friends if you do that. It would not surprise me, as I've seen it an innumerable amount of times before. We've certainly had our disagreements in the past however, so who knows how this one will turn out.

But I should say, there are a few others among this troupe capable of administrating these or other sites, managing a message board and keeping the Vampire site (the current one or any other) up to date with the latest house rules, and it would save me a lot of money and time not to have to manage these things. If there is a consesus among the spheres that I no longer provide these services because I don't agree with your husband's version of commitment as an HST it would mean a savings to me of a considerable amount of cash. Though I doubt you'll find such a consensus, particularly as you only have available to you to manipulate and cajole among the very poor attendance of the current vampire game.

Though as for the updating of house rules, I can say that often this last staff hasn't really seemed to want to put things in writing on the site, to spite my constant nagging at first (which eventually I gave up on). Its one of many things that I was concerned about and brought to the staff often, but to little avail. So in that respect, anyone who took over for me would have it easy I suppose.

If you actually have something constructive to put forth without being a complete ass, please do so.

Here's something constructive: HST Aaron should have met his commitments. On every level. He should have listened to his PAs and been willing to meet with players and discuss solutions to problems. He should have told stories to people who asked for them, because that's his title, and he should have asked his staff to do the same.

For you Toni: Stop armchair quarterbacking. Try actually running a game some time. And I don't mean fifteen years ago at Shades of Nightfall, I mean here at ECC. Try ASTing for someone. See what the job is like here. Its pretty unique with unique challenges. I think then you'll have seen a larger perspective. I'll be much more interested in hearing your advice on the subject afterward. I think you have a reasonable grasp on setting and rules. With a little brush-up you might make a fine Tremere ST even. Give it a shot sometime. It will open your eyes.

Both of you: Try werewolf. Another thriving sphere will give you a perspective on your own place in the world, and in this community that you are missing. Vampire isn't the center of the world you think it is, but don't take my word for it.

I hope that's constructive. I really do.

That all being said: Outside of game you are an awesome, wonderful caring and genuinely great human being.

Back atcha.

But something happens to you when game is the least bit involved and you become a total douchebag. This has gone on for years and it sucks.

I personally, really like the awesome wonderful nice Chris far better.

And you, you are an ____ ____ ____ Toni. A ____, ___-_____ ______ _____.

And that's the closest you'll come to getting called any names by me today.

Cuz I'm like, so mature.

- Chris

[The Mouth]

My .02 - Chris, I want to remove the financial liability of the hosting fees from you. I don't think anyone should be getting hit in the wallet like that for a service that is a general provision of the game.

The post that was deleted, and that took mine with it, had a lot to do with conflict mediation and whether or not I will be treated as a kleenex by players if elected - Every ST gets these conflicts popping up; getting them worked out is part of the job.

I can't run against Aaron, because I have to run against Jeffrey and Even. It their ideas who matter in terms of the campaign. More importantly, I won't run against Aaron. This last year has been, well, last year. I'm thinking about next year.

The increase in size has forced Werewolf in many to ways to adapt and become more like Vampire. But they always had a more involved storytelling culture there, something I saw as an AST and a player. I want to bring some of that to Vampire.

Story is this holy grail concept at election time. I will be honest and say to me it is just another cup, to follow the metaphor out. Fun is the holy grail - Chris stopped having fun and so he went somewhere else and found Fun there.

[Webmonkey]

Hey Ben, hosting fees are only a financial liability when people like Toni behave the way she is behaving now. It does prompt me to wonder why i pay to put up with that abuse. And there'd have been several times when I was briefly unemployed that the staff donated some of the general funds collected for things like events to me, so the sites could stay up and I could continue to do things like eat and pay rent. Fortunately life has treated me kindly in the last year or two, so I haven't needed to ask the staff for such.

I do all of the webmonkeying becuause it is something that I can do for the games and the community that adds something to it. Value, like an archive of stories, a forum to share ideas (most of them are not belligerent rants by the wife of the current
HST thankfully) and helps build a sense of community. it's a need that I could fulfill, and was willing to maintain rather than stand up on it's legs and walk away from. All of the sites require maintenance and work. I can't even put a number of hours to how many ive spent, setting up email addresses for each staff member, creating sub boards and updating house rules. The number of hours would probably be in the high hundreds peer year depending on the staff, player essays number of st changes,etc.

So if you'd like to do some of the work involved in site maintenance I'd be happy to show you the ropes. Feel free to givemme a call sometime and I can meet up with you and go over then details of the sites. Any st is welcome to the same, and I'll work with any st to present their data any way they wish online. It may require some work on their part as well, like actually writing down their house rules and giving it to me to post for example, but you may feel free to ask any HST (yes even Aaron) if there has ever been a time when they waited more than a day for a minor requested change, or perhaps as long as several for ammajormmulti-page change. I've even sat down with more than one HST and gone line by line over every house rule on the site with them, changing it as they preferred for clarity or intent. I would do so again if the next staff wished.

In other words, I take what I do 'professionally' seriously, and regardless of how I might feel about an HSTs conduct, I've never held my status as resident code monkey over anyone's head, never threatened or implied.

That said, nothing is stopping someone from making and hosting their own site. It's a lot more work than it sounds like,and a lengthy commitment, but I don't own the Internets.

One day i may decide to retire from that stuff. On that day, I won't 'flip a switch' and all of the sites disappear or any such nonsense. I'll let the game know and give them plenty of time to collect whatever relevant info they want, helping them if I can to do so, making suggestions or referrals to similar services to whomever decides to pick up the torch. No one has anything to fear along those lines. I'm not going to take anything away in a fit of pique, which seems to be the fear that is driving your 'offer' of support. It's going to be ok, really.

[Webmonkey]

Nov 28, 2010 8:10:14 GMT -8 @satyavati said:

I like this style of game. We have WAY more going on, and way more entirely player driven backstabbing. The Sts run NPCs and the world at large and what consequences our actions have in that world. Many are not good. Many are not good for our characters (*shakes fist at gangrel*) We have a great set up for a huge clan vs clan war if we push it and it would be awesome.

Funny- I spoke to more than 3 people who think you are both being childish.

I have not gotten undivided ST attention. In fact I get little compared to most because of the appearance of favoritism since the staff change over. I am ok with this.

Aaron ran on a hands off platform. Every single thing that has happened in game right now is happening because players chose it. And some people can't deal with that. I stuck it through Chris's tirades and abuse towards players as an ST, to see what better comes along.

And you do not get to bring any of my personal life into this thread. It has nothing to do with this game or how it is run- so back the fuck off.

Toni,

Just being lazy isn't a storytelling style. Forgetting to write things down, not making it to Storyteller meetings face to face or preparing mid week tests ahead of time, not answering email, delegating absolutely every facet of storytelling to your asts... It's weak commitment. Not telling stories with players displays a lack of creativity. Theres also the lack of objectivity, of fairness - total lack of willingness to have a simple conversation face to face about the issues and resolve them- thats not a style either, thats just being a dick.

Also, several folks have come up to me as well to tell me how much they dislike the play 'style' of Aaron, for almost a year. Many left the game, but many remain. Many have taken the time recently to tell me in no uncertain terms that they can't wait till he is gone so the game can be good again, so lady, Ive gotta say, your three person landslide is hardly a vote of confidence.

Finally I've never said anything derogative about your personal life, ever, other than not liking your tone and rude name calling. That's not how I roll and you've known me long enough to know that at least.

Peace

- Chris

[Jane]

Hate to break it to you Toni, but you ask any previous HST from Vampire and they will say that 95% of the plots that happened were player driven. So having player driven plot, not a pro you can use to try and shine up the pile of horse droppings that Vampire currently is.

Also The 3 people that you told we were acting childish, are people you probably hang out with a lot, good friends even. Two of the people who came up to me, I have not spoken to in almost a year, I don't have there phone numbers I only can recognize them as someone from game, they just wanted us to know that we aren't alone.

Ben has one point right, about trying to make vampire fun. The very first week I played at werewolf, one of the announcement points was this is a game, we are here to have fun, and you know what I did. There were times where it was heart breaking, stomach turning, intense, hardcore emotional, but it was fun.

Sadly, I would have to disagree with another one of Ben's points and that it, he can't run against Aaron. I think he and every other candidate has to run against Aaron, they have to show to all of everyone currently at vampire and all us who are on the fence or on the other side of the fence that they can be trusted, because that trust has been so severely damaged. They have to show how they are going to make things better, how they are going to raise the whole collective of vampire up out of the muck and give it back meaning. Give it back it's sense of community, its togetherness. They have to show that they are willing to reach out their hands to others and be there. Because without connection, without communication societies... Communities... are lost and meaningless.

[satyavati]

Chris-
Deleted my posts- I'm done dealing with you. You are an abusive player. STs don't like dealing with you- period. Players don't like dealing with you as an ST.

That is my main point. I don't care if you don't like the way the game is run- you constantly treat people like crap and its sickening, and unfortunately, I was goaded by your abuse against people I consider my friends yet again, because I really don't think your behavior is appropriate.

I lost my temper and got out of line and for that, I am sorry to those who had to witness this garbage, and my anger and part in it.