Curiousity fueled question

[Regan Kelly]

Do vampires dream, outside of supernatural events in a domain or having the nightmares flaw?

[Lady Dagger Rose]

hmmmmmmmmmm......if I were ST, I'd say yes, but rarely. I don't think the current ST's see it that way. You'll have to wait for an answer from one of them.

[Ivaret]

From my knowlege, no they don't. Vampires don't 'sleep'. They die for the day, then 'awaken' once more. For the day, they are normal corpses. Albeit they don't decay, but that's just a perk

[Webmonkey]

For most vampires, under most circumstances, Harvey is right. Vampires don't fall asleep. The blood simply ceases to animate them when the sun comes up, but keeps them from rotting.

The first time a vampire sleeps is usually a traumatic experience, as they feel as if they are truly dying, and it is a reminder each day that Final Death can still take them. The vampire sinks into utter darkness, and only with a great expenditure of will can a vampire remain mobile for even a few minutes after the sun comes up. I know STAdam's call on this is in line with that, because it came up recently.

For those with Nightmares, I would assume the effect is the same, but there are occasional flashes that interrupt the daysleep.

And of course there are possibly other supernatural forces that could potentially cause a vampire to dream...

[Clark Davis]

How do waking under situations of danger and the Light Sleeper merit work, then?

[Webmonkey]

I'll let the current STs make a call on this, but for my opinion, I would point you back to the fact that everything relies on the blood and the curse of Caine.

So naturally this would be a supernatural capability of the blood of that particular vampire in the Light Sleeper merit.

As to waking up in danger, danger would most likeley be defined as actual physical harm (damage) or nearby potential damage from things that are a Vampire's bane, such as physical heat from fire and sunlight, or possibly the radient glow coming from a Hunter's True Faith. It shouldn't (in my opinion) be something where if someone comes into the room you are daysleeping in, you get a test... after they splash the holy water on you and start cutting however, you get to throw some chops.

Comforting, idn'it?

Again, this is my opinion. I'll let the current STs yea or nay it.

[Clark Davis]

...*scribbles down notes*

[Jeffrey J]

Chris makes good point, but i think vampires do dream, I dont think its like normal rem, though, i think the beast dreams, and beast dreams are it fumbling through your memories....emotions....and wants....which may be very difernet style of dreams depending on wether the beast was part of you at the time of the initial experiencing of dreams of the past, and well dreams of the future and the beast...not quite enough to get you the nighmare flaw...

[Steve]

I sincerely hope vampires dream.... Chet never had the nightmares flaw, but half of the Catharsis posts were about his unconscious musings. Of course, Jeffrey's explanation stands to reason to explain this, or it could have simply been his own mind wandering after the daysleep wore off and his body hadn't decided to wake up yet.

[Joseph Mayek]

Well, I suppose I'll toss in my opinion, and supporting information for it, despite it being to the contrary of the common consensus here, so far.

Hmm.. where to start...

Vampires may well be “corpses” during the day, but they're corpses at night as well, albeit animated, insofar as being able to walk and talk. Yet, they still have no heartbeat, no breathing, etc. We all know the basics.

My view of ‘sleep’ for kindred is that, just as when they are awake, the body is dead (though preserved by the blood) but the brain has activity. Hence the ability to wake with a Perception roll during the day, and adding the clairvoyant aspect of Auspex to it, for those who have it. Like mortals, brain waves change, but there’s still a capability for thought, resulting in dreams, the ability to wake when an alarm goes off, or even when someone only comes into your room, because some part of you, on some level, is aware.

Of course, it’s different for each individual. Some wake easily, only needing a slight rustle of fabric, or maybe even the light breeze of someone moving as they come into the room (Light Sleeper.) Some wake at the end of the night, or day, still tired and not wanting to get out of bed, only to see with abit of surprise that their voicemail has a dozen missed calls. And the phone is right on the desk by the bed. (Deep sleeper) Then there are those who wake in the middle or end of the night, or day, with a scream caught in their throats. (Nightmares)

The point? Sleep is sleep. Mortal, or Kindred. The system in the book works for either but, there -are- differences (I’d personally make the mortal difficulty abit less). Just like there’s a difference between such things as “Crimes of Passion” or “Temporary insanity” as mortals lose themselves and do things they’d never do otherwise, and the atrocious deeds enacted under the passion of each kindred’s inner Beast.

That brings us to the question of the mystical aspects the Sun has on Kindred (as far as sleep is concerned, anyways).

Does it turn off the consciousness like a light switch?

Turn kindred into a heap of dead flesh, just waiting to be re-animated at dusk, unless otherwise severely disturbed?

My belief is, no, this isn’t what happens. That it is more of a suppression of the Beast, the Blood, the “Vampire”. What does it leave with the beast is suppressed in this mystic way? What’s left. What Kindred are truly referring to when they say Me, Myself, I. “The Self.” Or, you could take the spiritual side and say The Soul. Or, for the plain straight forward, Humanity.

What do I have to support this?

To awake, you make a Perception (+Auspex) roll (Could be for mortal, or Kindred, as said), and this is where the two split from one another. Where a mortal would only need their Wits about them to think clearly and act appropriately, a Kindred must make a Humanity roll, difficulty 8, successes garnered equaling the amount of turns they can remain awake (And then the wits and such, i.e. initiative). But, of course, that suppression is still there, as a Kindred cannot have a Dicepool any higher than his Humanity rating. And they can very well sleep back into unconsciousness, and be required to make another perception roll.

Therefore, I believe that answers what effects the sun has on Kindred, the suppression of an essential part of a Vampire, Lethargy, and weakness for those who have given too much of themselves, their Humanity, to the beast.

Does that prevent them from dreaming?

Once more, I don’t believe so. Dreams are the stuff of the sub-conscious, of certain stages of sleep. Kindred -do- sleep from what I’ve read, it is referred to many times throughout the books (and dreams are referred to a few times, as well), and do not so much as ‘die’ every time the sun rises, as they’re dead from the night they were embraced. So, as stated before, we can tell from the ability to perceive disturbances and awaken in the day, or the ability to -stay- awake during the daylight, there is brain activity no matter the hour.

So, let me make a few rational assumptions.

For Kindred, going to sleep is very likely much more easily done than a mortal is usually capable of, due to the suppression of part of their being, pressing them quickly into deep sleep with the weight of the sun. Deeper than mortals often sleep, perhaps.

Deep enough so that staying awake is difficult, and waking after sleep has come is even more strenuous depending on the amount of hindrance the sun causes (gauged by your humanity). Drugged, comes to mind. I imagine Kindred all taking a specified dosage of powerful sleeping pills at a certain time of night, and dropping off in ones or twos as the effects come to fore. Some fight it, some lay down and let it take them when they know the time has come, and go into the deep (And, given, often dreamless) sleep.

It is an unnatural sleep. However, dreams are possible. Where normal sleep drifts up towards light and consciousness now and again before sliding back down into dreams and shadows, this sleep takes you deep into the darkness, only now and then rising to give you a glimpse of images from a sluggish, weighed down mind.

Well, That's enough of that lengthy rambling!

[Webmonkey]

My opinion is based on what information I've gleaned from various developer chat transcripts, etc... It's the ST's final call tho.

[Joseph Mayek]

*nods* As it always is. Was just half asleep and babbling

I've just seen quite abit with kindred and dreams. Even in torpor there's brain activity, as a kindred can use powers like Oneirmancy in torp. Or normally, divining your own dreams when waking. Just alot of stuff that can be done with dreams, even against kindred, though with oneirmancy and such it usually requires the spending of a WP point (or two for higher powers), similar to Auspex and Telepathy.

[Janet]

Joseph said:

*nods* As it always is. Was just half asleep and babbling

When aren't you? It was a good read, though.

[Gorf]

Just to give you guys a heads-up, the ST's have been talking about this and researching cannon. I have personally found the cannon answer, yet have not had the chance to talk with the other ST's on the topic regarding this new information. It will be brought up during our ST meeting tomorrow and I will make sure that you have an answer on this thread by the end of Tuesday.

[Gorf]

Apologies for all those watching this thread, but we had to postpone the ST meeting yesterday due to an illness and multiple time-conflicts. Once the ST's get together and speak, there will be an update on this thread. Again, sorry for the wait.

[Gorf]

Alright kids, I've talked to STAdam and showed him the text for Vampire dreams which I'll post a bit of here for those of you that can't get ahold of the Vampire Storyteller's Handbook. We are going to run in accordance with the book.

"Think about it; vampires dream just like everyone else (maybe more so, because the older they get, the longer they "sleep" in torpor).... While dreams can be pleasant, they can also be awful and terrifying. A character's slumber allows you, the Storyteller, to play all sorts of nasty, paranoid, heinous or even uplifing and unlife-changing games that draw the character's fears, hopes and ambitions into the panorama of your chronicle." (page 111)

Also, without the fact that Kindred do, in fact, dream, the Path of Morpheus for Thaumaturgy would be much less powerful and almost pointless.

If you have any further questions on the matter, feel free to post 'em here or send an email.

[Webmonkey]

Looks like I stand corrected. I swear I've heard and read otherwise, but that's possibly since I've played both first and second ed. vamp.

[Lady Dagger Rose]

admin said:

Looks like I stand corrected. I swear I've heard and read otherwise, but that's possibly since I've played both first and second ed. vamp.

Probably. It does make sense though, since really the mind of a vampire doesn't die. And the mind is where dreams come from, not actual life. I would even think the dreams would be more vivid, since the experience of the vampire spans a greater period of time than a mortal.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Gee, thanks for rubbing it in.

[Lady Dagger Rose]

scion said:

Gee, thanks for rubbing it in.

;D Anytime Chris, you know that.