Adopting V20 in its whole?

[Just Evan]

What if we don't pick some rules from two systems and move to V20 entirely? Folks who have powers that do not exist in V20 are refunded XP for them and we treat it in game with the 'poof' method that heralded the changes from 2nd to Revised (it all changes, we are aware of the changes but unaware of the reasons) and chalk it up to the march towards Gehenna.

Thoughts?

[Webmonkey]

Missing Thaum and Necro, but generally here's the Disciplines that change in V20 and what the effects are.

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Changes in Disciplines
Between 3rd Edition and 20th Anniversary
Compiled by: Oregwath

Animalism
New rule for avoiding eye contact, Willpower roll with difficulty of appropriate Trait + Ability, normally Manipulation + Intimidate, of Discipline user.
Feral Whispers: Now specifies that the animal will not act out of nature or follow suicidal orders.
Beckoning: No change.
Quell the Beast: A botched roll means the player cannot affect the targets beast for the remainder of the scene, replacing the never again from 3rd edition. May now use the soothing option of this power to pull Kindred out of a frenzy.
Subsume the Spirit: Fewer than three successes no longer requires a Willpower point to be spent to act against the instincts of the animal, fewer than five successes no longer causes your actions to be clouded by the animals needs. Losing the animal like tendencies now takes seven nights or three Willpower points spent, instead of no time limit and seven Willpower points spent.
Drawing out the Beast: The Kindred no longer needs to be in, or close to, frenzy to use this ability. With two successes, the character may act normally during the turn, but at the cost of a Willpower point or a health level. Failure now throws you into a frenzy instead of increasing the one you are in. Killing a host to regain your Beast no longer costs a point of Humanity (you may still need to make a roll, depending on your score, but the lose is no longer guaranteed).

Auspex
No concept change.
Heightened Senses: Specifies that it is a reflexive action to activate this ability. The character may now activate single senses instead of all five at once.
Aura Perception: Clarifies that whether a subject is lying or not cannot be seen in the aura. Gives an option to scan a crowd looking for a specific color, like the most nervous person in a room. Added two new colors to the chart, Anxious and Ghoul.
The Spirit’s Touch: States that a corpse counts as an object and can be read accordingly. Added a chart that gives more guidance about what you learn from the amount of successes rolled.
Telepathy: The difficulty of the roll is now the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score. Target now receives a roll of Perception + Awareness (difficulty of the user’s Manipulation + Subterfuge) to sense where outside thoughts are coming from. The Kindred may attempt to hide who is speaking by rolling a Manipulation + Subterfuge (difficulty equal to the target’s Perception + Awareness). The Kindred may speak into the mind of a supernatural without spending a Willpower point.
Psychic Projection: Now requires a Perception + Awareness roll instead of Perception + Occult roll. More explicit difficulties for the activation roll. Specifies that sunlight will still trigger a frenzy check even though it won’t deal damage. The character may spend an additional point of Willpower to achieve the necessary amount of successes, ignoring the rule of one Willpower point per turn. Each scene requires another Willpower point spent and another roll. For other astral travelers, they must roll a Perception + Awareness (difficulty 8) and get more successes than the activation roll in order to notice you. Even then, they only notice an immaterial shade hovering in the general area.

Celerity
Now adds one die to every Dexterity related roll. The blood point spent to activate extra actions can exceed Generation maximums. Each extra action taken reduces the extra dice added to Dexterity rolls by one.

Chimerstry
No concept change.
Ignis Fatuus: The Kindred must be familiar with what they are trying to create. Now limited to 20 cubic feet per dot of Chimerstry.
Fata Morgana: No change.
Apparition: The illusion may make several subtle movements instead of one significant one. To maintain the illusion when attempting actions that require a dice roll now needs a Willpower roll or the illusion fails.
Permanency: No change.
Horrid Reality: Auspex users may attempt to disbelieve. The damage from this ability cannot be soaked. An ally may make a Charisma + Empathy roll (difficulty equal to the Manipulation + Subterfuge of the Kindred using this ability) to convince the target that it is not real and remove all damage. If this isn’t done in twenty four hours, the damage must be healed normally.

Dementation
No concept change.
Passion: Emphasizes that the character must speak to the target to use this ability.
The Haunting: Emphasizes that the character must speak to the target to use this ability.
Eyes of Chaos: Encourages the Storyteller to use allegory and make the visions more mad-like.
Voice of Madness: If the activation fails, the user must test against frenzy at +1 difficulty, if it botches the user automatically flies into frenzy.
Total Insanity: The difficulty of the activation roll is the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score. A botch will inflict conditions upon the user. Those affected by this ability may spend Willpower points equal to the number of successes on the activation roll to end the duration.

Dominate
New rule for avoiding eye contact, Willpower roll with difficulty of appropriate Trait + Ability, normally Manipulation + Intimidate, of Discipline user.
Command: The difficulty of the activation roll is the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score. If the command is against the target’s Nature, it confounds this ability.
Mesmerize: States that this ability cannot be used to plant illusions or false memories. The difficulty of the activation roll is the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score.
The Forgetful Mind: The difficulty of the activation roll is the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score.
Conditioning: The difficulty of the activation roll is the targets current Willpower points, not their total Willpower score.
Possession: This ability does not work on any supernatural creature. The target does not gain extra dice from net successes in the contested roll. The number of successes needed to use Dominate and Chimerstry were both increased by one.

Fortitude
No concept change.

Necromancy
Reserved for later review.

Obfuscate
New range of 5 yards per dot of Wits + Stealth.
Cloak of Shadows: No change.
Unseen Presence: No change.
Mask of a Thousand Faces: Must spend a number of blood points equal to the difference between their Appearance rating and the Appearance rating of the mask they wish to use.
Vanish from the Mind’s Eye: No change.
Cloak the Gathering: No change.

Obtenebration
No concept change.
Shadow Play: No change.
Shroud of Night: No change.
Arms of the Abyss: Potence and Celerity dots are added to the Strength and Dexterity scores of the tentacles. Tentacles cannot be used for fine manipulation like typing or driving.
Black Metamorphosis: Specifies that Kindred of weaker Generation my need to take two turns to activate this ability. Potence and Celerity dots are added to the Strength and Dexterity scores of the tentacles. Penalties to Stamina and Soak rolls do not stack with penalties from other powers in this Discipline.
Tenebrous Form: This ability only takes three turns to complete if the Kindred’s Generation demands that they spend the blood on three separate turns.

Potence
Each dot adds an extra die to Strength related rolls, instead of automatic successes. The Kindred can spend one blood point to change the extra dice to automatic successes for one turn.

Presence
Looking away no longer cancels the effects of Presence. The Willpower point and subsequent roll will allow the target to resist for one scene instead of one turn. Kindred of three of more Generations lower than the user may spend a Willpower point to resist the Discipline for a full night instead of a scene.
Awe: The player must spend a blood point to activate this ability. Willpower spent allows the target to resist for a scene and night, instead of a turn and scene.
Dread Gaze: Specifies that this ability is single target.
Entrancement: Difficulty of activation roll is the target’s current Willpower points, instead of permanent Willpower score. Specifies that the target may still spend Willpower to resist like any other Presence ability. Botch means the subject cannot be entranced for the rest of the story. Failure means the subject cannot be entranced for the rest of the night.
Summon: The player must spend a blood point to activate this ability. Botch means the subject cannot be summoned for the rest of the story. Failure means the subject cannot be summoned for the rest of the night.
Majesty: No change.

Protean
No concept change.
Eyes of the Beast: No change.
Feral Claws: This ability lasts for a scene.
Earth Meld: No change.
Shape of the Beast: Only Gangrel may takes shapes other than the wolf or bat.
Mist Form: specifies that the Kindred can perceive their surroundings normally, but cannot use Disciplines that require eye contact.

Quietus
No concept change.
Silence of Death: No change.
Scorpion’s Touch: No change.
Dagon’s Call: No change.
Baal’s Caress: No change.
Taste of Death: No change.

Serpentis
No concept change.
The Eyes of the Serpent: The victim just needs to see the Kindred’s eyes, not make eye contact as in Dominate.
The Tongue of the Asp: No change.
The Skin of the Adder: No change.
The Form of the Cobra: No change.
The Heart of Darkness: No change.

Thaumaturgy
Reserved for future review.

Vicissitude
Physical deformities gained through the Gangrel Clan weakness always heal back. The Discipline now uses Medicine in place of Body Craft.
Malleable Visage: No change.
Fleshcraft: No change.
Bonecraft: No Change.
Horrid Form: No change.
Bloodform: The Kindred can perceive her surroundings normally, but it is centered around the largest portion of the body or pool of blood.

[Eldric Voltare]

I have been playing the v20 for some time and I for one would love to see the change. Now you are probably wondering what crack Darrin has come up with that makes him want to change to this new and mysterious system, Nothing. In fact the Tremere are actually rained in quite a bit. Many of our rituals are reduced and made more realistic as well as many of our powers. The reason that I like v20 is that it is better defined. I support the idea, and those of you worried about a new system, its not really that different. It s the same with clarifications. Think of it as revised, revised. These are my thoughts.

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

Aug 31, 2012 5:23:18 GMT -8 Eldric Voltare said:

Now you are probably wondering what crack Darrin has come up with that makes him want to change to this new and mysterious system, Nothing. In fact the Tremere are actually rained in quite a bit. Many of our rituals are reduced and made more realistic as well as many of our powers.

I vote Aliens.

Aliens obviously hacked Darrin's account.

Possibly replaced him entirely with a robot.



But really I don't see why not. I like it way better than NWOD and tons better than MET.

And it may simplify the billion pounds of house rules down. But then I gave up trying to keep up with rules changes and clarifications 10-12 years ago.

[Bruce Cook]

I'd vote to adopt V20. Put simply, I believe it to be a better system. All of the published material in V20 was considered and reviewed at about the same time, instead of piecemeal over a period of time longer than my period of existence.

Now, there are problems with it. They didn't fix some glaring system issues (e.g. the hold/clinch system), but it is a more cohesive, better thought-out system overall.

I recognize that this is not a transfer of no moment. Everyone will be concerned how their character might be negatively affected by the change. Indeed, if the current staff prefers to use their energies elsewhere than on such an ambitious project, I will hold my piece and keep waiting, trusting that someday the Tremere will have an actual clan flaw.

[Ben Vaughan]

I too support transition to a full V20 system. PDF's can be obtained, books are out there, and the Print On Demand editions are available.

- Ben

[Eldric Voltare]

There seems to be a fairly positive responce so far, is it possible that he STs pole the player base as a whole?

[Capt. Calisto Santiago]

+1 for V20

I love the combining backgrounds system for coteries. It gives neonates a motivation to form strong coteries to get faster, cheaper access to the higher level backgrounds elders have spent years building, allowing a neonate coterie to work together to play with the big boys.

[Kevin K]

I don't understand how the new presence resist works with 'no changes' in Majesty. Is Majesty useful to create temporary stalemates with Kindred in our game, or not?

[Skir]

I'd like to make a statement on V20.

I like V20. Overall, it is obviously more balanced, better thought out and complete. I'm not going to switch to it right now.

Right now we are all on the same page about what book we use and we still get requests for stuff from second and even first edition. That's going to be a logistics challenge that will get large going forward. Further, my staff is working their asses off just trying to make the game we have work and patch the holes in the deck that have dry rot. It isn't easier, despite common perception, to switch to V20 and retro back the changes we dont like vs keeping status quo and adopting pieces we like. There are more broad concerns about the infrastructure of the game, continuity, and timing that we need to consider as well.

Essentially, I don't think going to V20 eventually is a bad idea, but this staff is in the middle of an organization overhaul that this game has needed for years like making staff wikis, collecting and parsing data, getting everyone on the same rules, and other back to basics type things that really need to happen before we can take on a project of this magnitude. For now, we will adopt the changes we need as we go, and once things are to a point where the first wave of things we wanted to accomplish are done, we can talk about a conversion to V20 in whole.

[Ben Vaughan]

And you are going to get bogged down in just handling game logistics.

Suggestion: Delegate.

You have RA's and PA's. Form a committee with them and a player or three and have them work it out, make the proposal to you to review, and go from there.

You've got a group of people here who seem interested in the idea, have them work it out.