Majesty Tactics?

[Kevin K]

I thought it would be interesting to discuss tactics for using/resisting Majesty. With the removal of the "combat unavailable" rule, it seems less powerful though that may be balanced by the additional change to how combat interacts with it (breaking only for the attacked). If you see something I don't, please share. This isn't intended as a complaint, just as a "thinking-through" of the consequences.

The relevant portions, as I understand them:

Majesty affects everyone except majesty users/thaum users
To resist, roll Courage vs Charisma+Intimidation each turn.
Failing to resist means you must help the Majesty user for the rest of the scene.
When the majesty user seriously attacks someone, majesty breaks only for the one attacked.
Spending willpower, like always, provides an automatic success that cannot be lost via tests.

My thoughts:
It seems like the prudent thing to do is spend Willpower instead of roll (except maybe the first turn). That makes the power sum up to "the Majesty user's opponents can't spend Willpower for auto successes in combat (one WP per turn). Sure, you could risk it if your courage is high, but the prudence suggests otherwise.

That's not nothing, but pretty far from "raising a hand to her is unthinkable".

One tactic might be to try and prolong combat until your opponents run out of willpower. On average, I think that would be 5-7 turns. My experience suggests that combat tends to last on average 2.5 turns, and I'm not aware of any tactic that would extend it to this degree. Fortitude 5 is far from enough.

One major question is whether blood expenditure for stats, etc. requires you to make the roll/spend the WP. If it's required, it would increase the number of turns involved in resisting, in scenarios where it's a surprise to both sides. (Majesty user's team doesn't have to spend WP to increase stats)

What's your take?

[Kevin K]

I thought I'd also share the "how to kill a majesty user" tactic for when combat was unthinkable, for those who do not have access to Thaum crack:

Remember that Majesty only lasts a *scene*, and costs a willpower to put into place. If you're attacking the Majesty user, you want a series of short scenes. Break into the room, Majesty user uses the power, and you leave. Into the next room, or whatever is the shortest distance possible, and repeat until the Majesty user is out of willpower. You're going to face more of the Majesty user's allies this way, but that's the point of the power.

Got several Majesty users in the group? Don't attack that group. It's a level 5 power.

[Kevin K]

One additional benefit to Majesty usage: It counts as using Presence on each person, lowering your future roll to Summon to diff 4. That's not nothing, either.

[Bubba Kush]

Oct 15, 2012 11:20:31 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

Majesty only lasts a *scene*, and costs a willpower to put into place. If you're attacking the Majesty user, you want a series of short scenes. Break into the room, Majesty user uses the power, and you leave. Into the next room, or whatever is the shortest distance possible, and repeat until the Majesty user is out of willpower. You're going to face more of the Majesty user's allies this way, but that's the point of the powerr.

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that walking into a different room defines the end of a scene? I'm calling malarky on this one, because shouldn't a 'scene' be, more or less, based upon time as well as location? "Running from room to room over a half hour, being chased" sounds like a single scene to me

[Wit]

Oct 15, 2012 11:34:57 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

One additional benefit to Majesty usage: It counts as using Presence on each person, lowering your future roll to Summon to diff 4. That's not nothing, either.

Well add to this, if they try the hit and run and hit an ect... Just summon the guy that's trying it

Oct 15, 2012 11:59:39 GMT -8 Bubba Kush said:

Oct 15, 2012 11:20:31 GMT -8 Kevin K said:

Majesty only lasts a *scene*, and costs a willpower to put into place. If you're attacking the Majesty user, you want a series of short scenes. Break into the room, Majesty user uses the power, and you leave. Into the next room, or whatever is the shortest distance possible, and repeat until the Majesty user is out of willpower. You're going to face more of the Majesty user's allies this way, but that's the point of the powerr.

I would think this would be overly true if summoned as well, "I run to end the scene" ... "I summon him back to keep it going!"

[Skir]

I have edit and delete, but that might be just moderators? I'll delete your previous one for you.

To clarify on "scenes"

A Scene is roughly "until there is a time skip of some kind" or about an hour if that doesn't ever happen.

Chasing someone from room to room would certainly be one scene unless you lost them totally, and then they found you again later that night, and then you ran away again to a new location entirely, etc.

Another thing, as long as I'm here, is that when I get to the point in a few more weeks of doing the Thaumaturgy review, I will be changing Pavis to V20 Pavis. Every player I've talked to (so far at least) has thought that the revised Pavis is better balanced and more fair, and most of those people have played Tremere and know full well what they are saying. It's not official yet, but there's a better than 95% chance that it will be when I get there. So go ahead and factor in that Pavis will no longer stop Majesty at some point in a few weeks.

[David Price]

Oct 15, 2012 12:57:36 GMT -8 Skir said:

I have edit and delete, but that might be just moderators? I'll delete your previous one for you.

Found it, thanks. Brainfart.

[Kevin K]

But anyway -- what about today? You're attacking a Majesty user, with your friends. Is it a big deal? Or just -1 WP and smack-smack time?

[Jeff]

So, question.

You can resist presence completely by spending Willpower and making a Willpower roll ( diff 8 ). It resists for 1 turn.
I'm assuming I could do this, instead of making the courage roll, and if I failed that willpower check, I can still make the courage roll ( though without the willpower to spend, obviously ).

Plus, if I'm 3 or more generation lower, I just spend the willpower point and ignore the vampires presence for the entire scene.

So, if you are gen 13 trying to use Majesty... yeah, all those gen 9 and gen 10 people are gonna end up laughing in your face and pwning you.

[Skir]

************************

Yeah, there is nothing preventing you from spending WP to succeed for a turn and make an attack, but you'll need to continue to do that.

And yes, you can still attempt to do that and then use the courage option. Willpower is great that way.

************************

This is no longer my accurate opinion. We are still talking this over.

[Kevin K]

Can staff or more recent players help me understand why we would want to revoke the Majesty & combat house rule? I felt we put that in place because we experienced that 1 WP/turn to kill a Majesty user just never made any difference to anybody. I've been in and out lately, so if there have been new experiences, I'd like to hear about them.

[Skir]

Here is the new mechanic we are thinking. I'd appreciate your thoughts:

"The Courage challenge in Majesty supersedes the normal ability to spend Willpower to avoid Presence effects. In order to act, or even imagine, against the Majesty user, a Courage challenge, difficulty equal to the Majesty user's Charisma + Intimidation, is required. One success allows you to raise your voice in polite dissent or opposition, two successes allows you to act in a way that is contrary to the desires of the Majesty user, and three or more successes allows you to raise your hand against them in violence. You may spend Willpower on this test as normal, and these successes last for one single round. Attempting the challenge and failing still has the devastating repercussions that are stated in the core book."

This satisfies the book's seeming dismissal of the ability with one or more (or both) versions of an easy challenge, while giving people both the opportunity to resist it, but what feels more like the appropriate difficulty in doing so.

[David Price]

Does the courage check require a willpower spend to happen in the first place?

Does Majesty still allow the user to attack people with this change?

[Hephaestus]

No, you do not have to spend willpower to make the check. Yes, the Majesty user is able to attack people, but it breaks the effect for the person who was attacked.

[Ebenezer Smith]

I do not feel that removing the need to spend a Willpower to MAKE the Courage check is in line with the power.

I believe you should be able to spend a Willpower for an auto-success as it is a non-reflexive roll like any other. And the book states that you are only limited to spending one Willpower for Auto-Success per turn.

Without the requirement of spending a WP to make the courage check it blunts the teeth of Majesty. If we did not use Mod-Dot perhaps it would not be the case. But Mod-Dot is inclined towards easy successes. Without the WP cost to make the check it means that even one of the scariest guys you know Charisma+Intimidation pool of 8 and a coward with a Courage of 1 has a good chance of being able to mouth off.

-Josh

[Skir]

You suggest that removing the need to spend willpower to attempt the Courage check as if the book indicates that is a requirement.

By the book, so long as you attempt a Courage check and "succeed" whether that is meant to be 1 success or 3, you may "act normally" for "the moment."

Requiring 3 successes and saying that "the moment" is a single turn is about as strict an interpretation that I can give without it being a straight up change to the power. Requiring a WP spent to attempt it isn't anywhere in the book, and I want to draw your attention to some math.

You mention in your example the Majesty user's Charisma + Intimidate being 8, thus a dif 8 Courage check being attempted by a Courage 1 individual.

As I'm sure you know, Dif 8 is -2 dice, putting our Courage 1 friend at -1, starting at a botch. He needs to test up twice to get 1 success, enough to politely disagree. ONCE. Any time he can't test up twice, he has to 1) humiliatingly imasculate himself begging forgiveness on hands and knees no matter who is watching and 2) cannot attempt to resist AT ALL for the rest of the scene.

Yes, he can spend WP to start at 0 successes but I wouldn't call that a good situation for him. He still has to test up at least once which isn't good odds, and is really just a waste of good Willpower for the off chance to squeak out a disagreement and the risk of MASSIVE EMbARASSMENT if he gets unlucky.

Let's take a more extreme example. Two besties.

Charisma + Intimidate 10 vs Courage 5.

Dif 10 is -6. That's the same -1 starting. The exact math applies.

If anything, this power as stated has too much teeth. All equal, even the best defeder starts at a botch and actually HAS to spend WP to even have just a chance (Must test up twice, 1 in 9 chance) to attack the Majesty user for ONE turn.

Do you still feel this power has blunt teeth in ModDot?

[David Price]

I'm actually concerned it's too powerful.

[Kevin K]

I think this has serious teeth. Here's my analysis:

bit.ly/Shvdew

At the higher levels, as Sean points out, things are brutal. I think that's maybe balanced by the fact that Courage 5 is easier to get than Cha+Intm of 10. 7,8, and maybe 9 are the places to look. I really don't expect you to depend on Majesty if your pool is less than that.

here's the 7,8 pool breakdowns:


I'm still thinking if this is too much, when combined with the requirement that those not attempting or passing this test *must* defend the Majesty user.

[David Price]

The "this is too powerful" scenario is always "I buy Cha+Intim 10 and Majesty. I walk into Elysium, turn it on, and start killing people one by one." If the power can do that, it's ridiculous.

Sure, majesty drops for the one you hit. But the majesty user has had all the time in the world to prep and is fighting a single target that they chose. We're going to assume they can win that fight.

Only people with courage 5 and spend a willpower have a _chance_ of attacking this person, and that's 1 in 9. Everybody who doesn't get a success has to join in on the beatdown of random guy until it's their turn to be targetted.

Majesty users themselves are immune, but all that means is you have to make a few alliances or wait until certain people aren't in the room (or target them first).

You don't even have a guaranteed out if all you're trying to do is _leave_ - that's 2 in 9 (after willpower).

[Mercury "Merc" Miller]

Oct 24, 2012 8:25:23 GMT -8 David Price said:

If the power can do that, it's ridiculous.

Said the Tremere player.

The point is, if people can simply spend a Willpower (trivially available resource) to ignore Majesty for a turn (more than long enough to kill most any vampire), then Majesty is worthless.

Your counter-argument is "But if someone tries to use it offensively, it's very powerful!" That just sounds like the World of Darkness to me. In your example - Elysium - every Tremere would laugh and shrug off the effect, and Presence is in 3 common clans, including 2 who are likely to buy it up to 5. Popping Majesty in a crowded space as a precursor to murder is a spectacularly poor idea.

If you're saying Popping Majesty after cornering someone you're trying to kill is too good, well - there are lots of much easier ways to make sure someone dies in this game.