Haven Tactics

[Kevin K]

New systems! Let's discuss some ideas, and make sure we're not confused, and see what related questions come up. I plan to use this system, and in fairness to other characters who are supposed to be old and experienced, I thought I'd do my thinking in public.

I assume that most characters either have, are, or can get a specialist with 8 dice. Then there's Leadership. Related question (asked in another thread) is the Leadership roll a "social" one with respect to Presence? This could make for some serious power, no matter which side of the coin you're on. Setting that aside, let's say you get three participants, so 11 base dice +WP for 7 successes.

What's the difficulty(Q1)? Let's assume that it's six, as it's not otherwise specified. Let's say tests are a wash, though that brings up another question(Q2).

Staff Question 1: Are all havens diff 6, or is the Nosferatu underground lair easier to secure than the Gangrel trailer home?

Staff Question 2: How often can this test be repeated? If I have a specialty, I may want to do it quite often until I get +3 successes.

Okay, 7 successes. Now a tactical question: Surveillance or Defense? I'm thinking Surveillance, because I pretty much expect things to be breakable where Kindred are involved. So which Systems to pick? I don't quite get the System Categories, which brings up:

Staff Question 3: How many categories of 'cooperating' stuff are there? Just the Surveillance and Defense from the example? Or are there others?

Let's assume the two. So here's my picks. It seems the important stuff is to cover the supernatural, and have a broad range of skills required to be successful. Clearly anything involving physical stats should be assumed to fail when Kindred are involved.

Surveillance (4)
Alarm System(Wits+Security)
Cameras(Dex+Stealth -- dex is a bummer, but want the storage)
with Off-site storage()
Animal Surveilance (Q4, Q5, Q6), assumes animalism 1?

Defense (3)
Keypad (Int+Computers)
Hidden Entrance (Perc+Investigation)
Airtight Interior (Q7)

This brings up some questions:

Staff Question 4: What would the roll be for this system?
Staff Question 5: Would Animalsim 1 be sufficient for this justification?
Staff Question 6: The wording of the post seems to imply that rituals have to be "integrated" via successes on the security roll, is that correct?
Staff Question 7: Is this a standalone system, or an upgrade? What's the roll to 'defeat' it?

Whew! Let's ignore money for now, and summarize what the attack looks like. Somebody tries to break in.

At diff six, our assumed dice pools of 6 and 3 contributors (just like for the defender) gives us nine dice. At diff six plus a spent willpower, that's six successes. Test down twice, and you're still in. Except for retesting and money (a big exception!), the need to split between Surveillance and Defense gives the attacker the edge, IF they're in a concerted group.

One character on their own is unlikely to have the luck and dice pools to get in. (4 successes on Wits+Security, Dex+Stealth, and 3 on Int+Computers, Perc+Investigation all without testing down.)

If you throw in retesting until you get +2 or +3 successes, and even a modest $120k in upgrades, we're looking at some serious security.

That's enough for now. The next step is to consider the same scenario when you don't play by the rules. Aka "All Skills and Disciplines can be simulated with a large enough level of Potence."

Edit: number fixes.

[Kevin K]

Did I mention that I think this is a fun addition? I've always kind of shied away from dealing with my Haven in detail, because I felt it was just a game of rule-free make-believe, and any attacker was just going to Potence, Obfuscate, and Thaum their way through my security. Maybe that'll still happen, but at least there's consistency to it.

[Wit]

Yea, this is something that I find very interesting, but wrapping my brain around it fully is taking some work. Also... It seems like the havens people are putting together resemble the Owner quite well... scary people have some pretty amazing havens.

Another answer to some of this is getting one of these more awesome people to put your security in place, which while allowing them perhaps a better knowledge of your protections then many may like offers a lot more security to those of us that are not overly security inclined

[Mercury "Merc" Miller]

The only answer is security through obscurity. If no one knows where you live, they can't day-raid you.

[Skir]

Firstly, I'm glad that you think it's a fun addition. I don't hear that enough when it comes to changes.

Question 1 - To keep things fair and more importantly, not subjective, all Havens start at Dif 6 to secure them. Arguments could be made that big mansions have more entrances to cover than a one room trailer, while the trailer has thinner walls, etc. But it's mostly for simplicity and balance.

Questions 2 - You can repeat the test as often as you like to redo, reconfigure or whatever your test, up to once per week I'd say. Remember that means you're having to get all your security pals together each week, which is fine if they are your ghouls, but if they are PCs, you might have to pay them to keep redoing it.

Question 3 - Only two "cooperating" groups, Surveillance and Defense. Special systems are their own thing, standalone rules.

Side note - I mention somewhere in there that each test is about a minute worth of time. That means if you are using blood to boost, you can probably only go to 6, (which you can do for the scene) rather than 10 because that only lasts 3 rounds without more blood. Just something to think about.

Question 4 - Dex + Stealth? Charisma + Animal Ken? Your choice, ultimately.

Question 5 - Animalism 1 would be plenty, sure. If they are dogs or something, then maybe not even Animalism, just some money or some animal ken.

Question 6 - Not exactly, and I should expand upon that a little.

Certain rituals, like Defense of the Sacred Haven, would work normally.

Some of them you might want to use a success to put as a Special Rule. So, for instance, Circle Ward vs Kindred as a Special might let you lay tons of interlocking circle wards down and make them pass one circle ward test each time they pass a Defense to continue.

Still a third kind might be to make up your own mechanic and justify it with one of those disciplines, for instance, you might use a Special system to say that You cannot teleport through the walls, or use Incorporeal Passage or otherwise magically transport yourself through, and you could justfy that by having Thaumaturgy 5, even though there's no real ritual in any book about that. Another example would be to use Animalism to train mice to detect the presence of ghosts or spirits, as they are more sensitive to those things, and make those sorts of things test against your cameras and other surveillance normally. Anything you can imagine and can basically justify, as long as the ST approves.

Question 7 - Special systems are standalone things, not really a barrier to entry so much as a rule or modifier to existing things. There is no roll to defeat them, outside of some crazy story thing, they are permanent and always going. If, for instance, you created some kind of giant radio jammer or EMP device that shut down all wireless chatter on every band in a quarter mile, it might make it so the Offsite Backups wouldnt work, but such things are outside of the purview of any single roll on the fly and are the domain of story.

Keep it coming, I love the theory crafting.