What Can I Get Away With?

[Bubba Kush]

The world of darkness is a place of horror, mystery, and, well, darkness. As others have said, publisher White Wolf cannot fully draw out this world, leaving much to the imaginations of the STs and the Players. That being typed, what sort of boundaries are there, and where do they lie?


Lets take an example, say the character Joffrey is a terrible, horrible vampire that does many terrible, horrible deeds. What sort of things can I say Joffrey has done in casual conversation?. ("Well, let me tell you how many bodies I dump in the river every, month...")


Is this the sort of world where people rob banks all the time? That drugs & human slavery are both common, if loosely hidden, commodities?


And I'm not asking for "how many dots to rob a bank", I mean "How dark is our world of darkness, and how much easier is it to get away with bad deeds than in, say, reality?".

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

It's my experience that what you can get away with has to do with what Humanity level the characters around you are like (and also how they interpret that and what that means). If your character goes around murdering mortals a lot of Kindred won't care as long as the Masquerade stays nice and tidy, but some might consider it a personal duty to stop the character and rehabilitate them, or decide that since they are 'evil' that the character is fair game for Diablerie - that's an IC player perspective. As far as the 'world' goes that seems to differ a little with each ST, but there seems to be plenty of well developed bastions of graft corruption, drugs, gangs, etc in the mortal world under this staff. Just one player's opinion.

[Just Evan]

+1 to Chris.

Camarilla Society does not have a tradition that states "You must adhere to the Kine's local laws."

So robbing a bank or dealing hard drugs or burning down an orphanage are not, prima fascia, against any of the 6 Traditions.

However, if your actions lead mortal authorities to investigate Elysium (for example), you can be executed, banished, have status stripped, etc... for endangering the masquerade. If your actions lead mortal authorities to investigate the domain of another Vampire, he could press for punishment due to violation of domain.

At the end of the day, it comes down to a matter of status and the mindset of the characters of the Prince, Sheriff, Keeper and Harpy (and maybe the Primogen if anyone asks them) as to if you are in trouble for any given utterly inhumane actions that don't directly break the big 6.

Thems my .0458 cents (inflation).

-Evan

[Styx]

To add my pennies, it also sadly often comes down to what the Player feels strongly against.
I cannot count the number of times that a character of mine, with a low humanity, has done something "evil' that another character, also with low humanity, has found reproachful because the player has issues with it (raping a child for instance).

Granted, a lot of players try hard to keep that separate from their character's morality, but the amount of times that hasn't worked for them is significant enough to keep it in my memory.

[Just Evan]

To spark discussion off of David's response; the other aspect of this keep in mind is that the struggle against internal darkness is central to the game theme (as mentioned by Chris in his response). The front of the book sums it up: "A monster I am lest a monster I become."

When characters who are fighting against their own monstrous nature encounter a greater monster than themselves, reacting against it is a legitimate story telling device. It externalizes a struggle and gives the semi-moral monster something 'legitimately evil' to fight against.

The cycle repeats itself every few characters at EC - if you play a character who engages in truly dark passions, when the other characters find out about it, they are going to try and bury you. This is a fairly normal storytelling principle as well as human response. In game canon, the powerful, inhuman elders do not flaunt or brag about the depths of their depravity. They keep their sins hidden - not necessarily out of a sense of shame or self loathing, but because 'those weak minded neonates will never understand the needs of a truly great soul like myself' or something equally selfish and warped. Truly dark characters make for great story, but playing one necessarily means that when your excesses come to light, other PCs move against you, regardless of their own crimes (ESPECIALLY other monstrous characters - the better to hide their own sins).

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

For my money, what I have found really depends on two things.

A) Which storyteller you bring the deed too (also reflective of how Staff feels about you in general)

and

B) How well you bother to cover your tracks.

I have had a character that lost humanity for having an associate give blow-jobs as a method of easy feeding. We were both Humanity 6 characters at the time, we weren't being cruel. We just fellated some dudes in the bathroom as an easy excuse to regain some blood. Seemed easy to me, but the storyteller running the scene thought that I was particularly heartless in this pursuit (and might have had a thing for morality anyway). Did I find this to be a dark story? Not really. Did I think a Humanity check and subsequent loss was appropriate for the story I had just partaken in? Not really. But it clearly defined the moment. I'd have to make Path checks because I wouldn't get on my knees to cops too.

Point being, the game is as dark as you make it and as dark as the STs running the scene will allow. They're people too, and they have their own biases and opinions on you, your character, and your character's action. Also, if you have a long history of messing with people and staff (as I have over the years), you should expect more scrutiny and backlash for more menial tasks simply because you have raised people's bias' against you.

The second part of how dark a story you can tell really does boil down to how well your character covers it up. If you take no action to hide things, or you cover things up sloppily under the pretense of 'This is the world of Darkness, families get slaughtered in their beds ALL the time', well that is likely to offer some backlash. Relying on the 'World of Darkness' to be your cover will, without fail, 100% of the time, end your dark storytelling days forever. The world will NEVER be so dark, so dire, so grim as to be a cover for blatantly evil acts.

I have also found that where the Storyteller's bias' and 'WoD cover-up' stories meet is where you will meet the most failure. Conning a bunch of teenagers into being drug addicts for your own pleasure and addictions, destroying their lives forever but meeting your needs, is a rather dark story. And many Storytellers might just take a few notes, run the scene for you, and no one ever hears about it again. But, if that Storyteller had issues with abuse in their past, or drug use in their past, they are far far more likely to have this come up to other PCs. Either through influences, or investigations or whathaveyou.

Anyway. That's my thoughts on the matter. Pick your storyteller wisely, pick your method of keeping yourself hidden wisely, and brag OOC during the scene and after to a minimum, and you can tell some mighty dark stuff. Mighty, mighty dark.

Just don't ever rely on the world being a dark place to be your cover.

-Rob.

[Bubba Kush]

Going deeper, how much "tracks covering" is actually necessary?


Take mass murder for example. Say in "reality" we catch 85% of serial killers (making this up, but follow me) in the US. I imagine in the world of darkness that number is much lower, due to increased ineptitude, apathy, and evil in general. Maybe 30-50% caught?


Bottom line, how much easier is it to be a criminal, muderer, etc in the world of darkness? Not really? Very much? How sloppy can one be and get away from prosecution from the mortal authorities?

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

A little cover-up goes a long way, I have found.

But, the best way to avoid being caught, is to have the ST running the scene makes checks with you to see if there are other ways to be caught that you might not have thought up. It might not be that serial killers are caught less frequently in the world of darkness, it just might be that there are many more so it appears so.

I haven't really dabbled with this staff on city affecting evil acts, so I can't speak to them definitively. But I can say that I've seen them handle most things reasonably and fairly to the world they present. Which is sort of a dark ass world.

It sounds like you are either dabbling in evil or pondering some evil. The best way to get away with stuff is to get staff to buy in. Rather than walking up to them and saying "I wanna murder a group of people in their house and get away with it!" I find it better to say "I am investigating crime rates in blah area" or "I am looking for a serial killer who I can track down and talk to" or "Say I wanted to kill a family, my character has a bunch of dots in Investigation and Streetwise, how can I best get away with this?"

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all. And if a staffer is brought in early, and works with you to help construct and then run the scene, they are far more likely to fight for you in meetings and keep the integrity of the scene valid. Getting caught by mortal authorities is like 2% of your problem with doing evil stuff. Low level disciplines can handle a bevy of cops. What sucks is word of your misdeeds getting into PC hands, and that's really what you need to curb in order to continue telling dark tales.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Rob's advice is totally solid. I would only add that a little over top villainy can actually in some cases mitigate the effects of 'meta-morality' somewhat. For example, David's old character Grimm was a cackling mask wearing Nos who was so obviously mustache twirlingly evil that I think people let him get away with stuff longer just because it was sort of hilarious, in that cat stroking bond villain sort of way. Which of course takes the edge off of the darkness a little too, so that might not be your cup of blood.

I've also used the tactic when playing truly villainous characters of having a barking mad 'renfield' to make your character look normal (Mr. Hat and Paavo), and there are other ways to mitigate it too, such as being very 'politically' neutral or supportive as a means to derive support when your character's depravities are eventually brought into light.

[Kevin K]

My take is this:

Kindred society (Cam, Anarch, and Independent in our game) is basically a big fat pack of hypocrites. Some monsters are known, and revered. Some monsters are known and reviled. The same actions often lead to different results.

The difference is convenience and lies. Sometimes it is convenient to attack this monster in our midst, because they're in the way politically. Sometimes it is expedient to attack 'monsters' because it makes the attackers appear powerful and righteous. And some of those that do the attacking are monsters themselves.

Overall, the difference comes when you go from being "our monster" to "their monster". Outsiders become outcasts quickly, to the benefit of the insiders.

And that, I think, is truest to the setting than any blanket tolerance of any particular action.

-Kevin

[David Price]

There's also a pretty strong sense of "Who do you have behind you?" - if you're in a clan or group that is accepting of you being a monster and are okay with it to the point that they'd defend you against attackers, you'll have a lot fewer people trying to mess with you just for goodness sake. Historically Nosferatu and Tremere are generally good clans for this, unless the goody-two-shoes is in the same clan as you.

Bringing up Grimm again, Price wanted to shut him down, but it wasn't worth pissing off the entire Nosferatu clan to do so. Up until Price got the leverage of the nosferatu kidnapping and torturing a Tremere ghoul, at which point the Nosferatu clan realized protecting Grimm wasn't worth pissing off the entire _Tremere_ clan.

[Skir]

Everything said here is good advice. I'll weigh in a little bit about my view of the setting and themes of World of Darkness, and how I tend to run consequences.

My thinking is that serial killers aren't caught less frequently, there are just more of them, and they probably get caught around the same percentage of the time - perhaps a bit less often. The perhaps a bit less is because, in my view, World of Darkness is the same world but with an oppressive emotional bitterness that pervades everything. You can assume a cop is corrupt until proven otherwise, not the other way around. You can assume a decent woman would have adulterous sex for money until proven otherwise. You can assume that the strange shut in who works the basement level mannequin workshop is hiding something dark down there. He probably is. The guy in the alley probably really is a mugger, not just a guy in an alley. People are on the whole a bit more spiritually defeated, a bit more likely to think of morality as "just a concept" in the face of practical need. Exceptions exist, and these rare people define the setting by their rarity.

Also, double the world population. Go from 6 billion to 12 billion people. That alone makes things harder and darker. The cities are overcrowded, the resources are strained. The economy is perpetually down. All the buildings have gargoyles on them, like Gotham.

Does that mean you can get away with murder, literally? Sometimes. Crime is much higher overall, so the chances of your crime getting full police attention are diffuse. Police still answer to the public though, and even corrupt cops still want to stay cops to maintain their situation. They are corrupt because their teenage daughter is a meth addict, and their wife beats her every time she comes home high, so she is staying at a crack den five nights a week now. Money might help get her an apartment, or something else, so he'll gladly steal or take a bribe if he can. Police have a responsibility to the public just the same, so especially high profile crimes will get follow-up from the cops. They can be expected to investigate and attempt to solve any crime that hits the papers.

To that end, that's bad news for Kindred. In my view, cops are a serious antagonist for vampires - worse than werewolves and worse than hunters. Let's say a kindred eviscerates a family in their beds. The world is dark, but this is still shocking and hideous. The chief of police comes out to the crime scene, maybe the mayor. They all look at the carnage and then at the detectives in charge of the crime scene and say without saying it: "You better get this guy or it's your ass."

In game terms, your average police detective probably has Perception and Intelligence 3 to 4, and Investigation 3 to 4. That's a dice pool starting at 3 to 4 successes. He also can get assistance from about a dozen uniformed officers with Investigation scores of 1 to 2, and 2-3 in their mentals. With Leadership, we're talking about 7 or so dice plus another 3 or 4, and about 5 or 6 successes on a standard difficulty, and that means they can find you at your Haven, or at Elysium. If you left a real clue, like your face on a camera, that difficulty drops, and we're talking about more. These guys are professionals with excellent equipment and a dozen layers of bureaucracy to protect them from Dominate and Presence. If a team of cops goes out to arrest a person of interest and then comes back to the station after deciding that they shouldn't (and not quite understanding why..) their Captain is going to have their asses, and send them back out. If they can't or won't, or the same thing happens, they'll send different detectives. The same trick isn't going keep working without a bigger and bigger response, and there isn't a level of Dominate that is going to save you from a SWAT team with a helicopter.

If a detective gets your cell phone, you're even worse off. They can get a warrant for a wiretap (and they don't need one if they think you're a terrorist - and you probably are, by most definitions) and start tapping you and all of your known associates. They can start checking your GPS coordinates, and the coords of the people in your phone book. They start realizing that everyone on your list meets at the same building every Saturday, and before you know it you have national guard or NSA literally beating down the door of Elysium to do a raid. Even if you completely defeat any machine gun toting squad of mortals in class 5 Armor, (and the entire court probably can, but you'd be surprised how many they'd get first) the entire thing is being watched from a helicopter (or Caine help you, a spy drone, these days) and feeding the data in real time to others. If you manage to get on top of the mess without begging Rite of Succor, your political career, and possibly your unlife, is over for the danger and embarrassment that such carelessness caused.

At least a werewolf will just kill you - he won't rip the masquerade open forever.

Okay so that's kind of a horror story, but it's not an unrealistic one. Police are a real threat, so they shouldn't be ignored or their efficacy played down. Does that mean you should never break the law? No, you do that every time you feed. Does that mean you can't be evil? Certainly not - but remember that overt meanness and violence is the lowest form of evil. Does that mean magic cops will "get you" if you leave a single clue? No, but like Rob said, an ounce of prevention will go a long way. Often a token effort to make a plausible cover-up will mean that the STs don't pick this specific crime to chase after with the Seattle PD. What it does mean is that you can't be a supervillain and just "Get away with it" because its the World of Darkness. The world is dark, dark as hell, but I have often said that I don't have to do anything to make the world dark except make it realistic. Realistic consequences have always been my guiding star when it comes to "darkness" in this game. The natural and normal response to a player's actions, whatever they may be, are usually so dark that you'd choke if you actually stuck around to watch. Madness, poverty, prison, broken homes and suicide are all very common after a "casual" interaction with a Kindred. Every time a vampire randomly uses Dementation on a mortal to stir up trouble in some other clan's domain, imagine the personal horror of the person as they take a knife to themselves or their spouse because they are crippled with fear. Even if it's not fatal, that's the end of their marriage, and possibly the foster system for their kids. That leads to drugs, hardships, everything else that goes along with it, just because you shot a cruel glance and a power at someone. The world doesn't need any help from me to be dark. Dark as hell.