Split Action Timing Rules Discussion

[Ascanio Giovanni]

This thread was created to move some of the debate on the Split Action vote thread somewhere else. There were some good points that all bear discussion being raised there, but some of them were getting off topic from the item up for vote. Most notably was the issue of the timing of split actions. Please move all discussion of timing of split actions here so as to not clog the vote thread which is not about the timing at all.

[Kevin K]

How I think it works today

Corker and Goofus are fighting. Each has celerity 5, and a dex+melee pool of 8.

Corker declares that he will not spend for Celerity, but will split his actions 3 times.
Goofus spends 5 blood for celerity.

Corker is splitting his 'everyman' action, so all of Corker's actions go first. Corker makes decent shots, since Celerity adds to the "splittable" pool (13 dice)

Goofus generally dies, and does not take Celerity actions at all.

How it seems like it should work

Multiple actions are multiple actions, and take place in initiative order whether their source is splitting the initial action, or spending celerity.

Above, Goofus and Corker trade blows for 3 rounds, then Goofus has two more attacks.

(props to Rob for his ministrations)

[Ethan Todd]

I disagree. Split actions are not supernatural in nature, and should not be able to be used to block Celerity actions.

By this thinking, a human could actually stand a chance against a vampire using Celerity, if they've got enough dice to split. That's ludicrous.

I prefer the old version. Normal actions, Split actions, Celerity actions. And, no, you can't split Celerity actions.

Of course, that'd require using the old dice version as well, lowering the amount of dice per action, rather than a set number of dice.. but that's a different topic.

[Jeff]

Full defense has always been usable against Celerity.
Actions, whether split or whatever, can always be aborted to defensive actions.
The book clearly says that multiple actions, whether through split or celerity, happen at the end of the round.

I'm actually quite happy to put split actions into individual rounds with celerity, again affected by initiative, etc.

I'd also be fine to but all split actions into a big group "end-of-turn" round.

So, everyman action declare / resolved.
Then all split and celerity actions declared / resolved.

And yes, this gives high initiative people great initiative, but since you can abort actions to defensive actions, it isn't that huge.

Since celerity adds to dex for determining initiative, and spending on celerity actions sdoesn't actually affect initiative, that still means all the advantage goes to the people with Celerity as far as supernatural speed.  I'd even say for ties on initiative, we should consider adjusting it to "Level of Celerity, then Wits, then Dex" 

Also, if we made that slight change, I think that might actually speed up combat.

Taking Kevin's example:

Corker split's his actions, Goofus spends for celerity

Regular actions go first:
Corker attacks with his first action ( 10 dice ) ( 13 - 3 for 3 split actions) 
Goofus defends with his everyman actions, he has 8 dice to defend. He might get hit, but that's ok, shouldn't be tooo bad.

Then, end of round starts, Corker says ( I'm gonna attack twice more ), Goofus says I'm gonna defend with two of my cel actions, then attack with 3 of em.

Depending on intitiative ties, etc, things might go a little different. But, regardless of what happens, Corker is gonna get extra attacks.

---

Oh, that reminds me, to Kevin's first example, you can abort any action to defense at any time, including Celerity actions, so even if all of Corker's everyman actions went first, Goofus can still use his full 8 dice of defense for each celerity to defend.

[Kevin K]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about defense at all, whether full or aborting-to.

Both sides have decided to trade blows. One has spent for Celerity, the other has not. Presumably paying the blood cost should be the advantage, right?

I prefer the old version. Normal actions, Split actions, Celerity actions.

In that order, Celerity takes it in the shorts. Both get 1 attack simultaneously, then the NON-celerity user gets their attacks, and the Celerity attacks go last.

Celerity going last just seems weird, and in this situation is actually a tactical disadvantage.

[Sethron]

If splitting actions were conformed to V20/2nd Ed, the tactical advantage would go to Celerity completely because splitting pools would be shit, to be fair. Because in general, if you are trying to move at super speeds and have no super-powers, that is harmful to the accuracy of your blows/defenses by a thorough amount.

[Kevin K]

Jul 4, 2013 1:54:53 GMT -8 Sethron said:

If splitting actions were conformed to V20/2nd Ed, the tactical advantage would go to Celerity completely because splitting pools would be shit, to be fair. Because in general, if you are trying to move at super speeds and have no super-powers, that is harmful to the accuracy of your blows/defenses by a thorough amount.

Do you mean Celerity-having or Celerity-using? That's the distinction I'm making here. The bottom line is that right now, you should never spend for Celerity, because split everyman actions come before Celerity actions and that's a huge tactical advantage. I think we should fix that.

An Example Where Terrence Tremere with no Celerity forces Billy Brujah of Celerity 3 onto the defensive, despite Billy having spent for Celerity.

Let's say Terrence has a dex+melee pool of 11 (raw 9 plus specialty plus secondary). And is fighting Billy, who has the same pool but Celerity 3.

Terrence splits his attack pool 4 ways, into pools of 3, 3, 3, and 2. He elects to spend WP on the 2-dice wp for a solid 2 successes on each on average.

Billy, spends 3 blood for celerity, also giving him 4 actions this turn.

Now, who would you expect to be on the defensive here? The person without celerity right? Billy thinks the same and expects to clean Terrence's clock with his major dice advantage, or at least make him abort to defensive.

He will make his first attack at 11 dice (wow!) then will sit down and wait through Terrence's subsequent attacks.

The first one is big, but not lethal. Then he waits for his next chance. Except all everyman actions go first.

So he has to either abort to a dodge himself (WTF?) or take four attacks in a row. Yep, they're less powerful (only 1 success rollover) but if Terrence has a big weapon, decent strength and some potence, it's easily a damage pool of 11 or 12. If Terrence is dealing aggravated damage in some way (burning blade, claws, assamite stuff, any of a zillion other ways) he either dies or has to abort to defensive.

And that's what's weird. The Celerity user is at a disadvantage by using Celerity.

"But he could abort to defense, and those defensive actions will be at full dice!" yeah, and at -3 blood per turn. Terrence waits until Billy runs out of blood and it's back to split everyman actions. Which is what Billy should do to begin with. Take his 11 dice pool, and split it just like Terrence is splitting his.

You should never spend for Celerity. QED?

This is easy to fix, all extra actions are just extra actions, happening in initiative order. To your initial point, Celerity users will have extra actions with huge dice pools. And that's what it's about.

[Jeff]

Kevin, you are totally correct, that is how the system works currently, though I rarely see that happen.

By the book, all multiple actions, including celerity, happen at the end of the round.

There are two possible answers to this to address things.

1. Every action constitutes its own round in initiative order, whether it comes from celerity or split actions. This would be the standard declare, resolve, declare, resolve, declare, resolve.

2. All "multiple actions", whether from split actions or celerity actions, go in a single second "round" declared and resolved in initiative order.
So, declare everyman, resolve everyman, declare all your multiple actions and resolve all multiple actions.

Method 1 takes the longest to resolve in OOC time, but has the least methods of exploiting it.

Method 2 actually wouldn't take as much time to resolve OOC, and I kinda like the idea, and it gives the major advantage to whoever has the highest initiative. Which, in many cases, is also the person with the most celerity.

[Brendan]

Jul 1, 2013 14:51:48 GMT -8 Ethan Todd said:

I disagree. Split actions are not supernatural in nature, and should not be able to be used to block Celerity actions.

By this thinking, a human could actually stand a chance against a vampire using Celerity, if they've got enough dice to split. That's ludicrous.

I prefer the old version. Normal actions, Split actions, Celerity actions. And, no, you can't split Celerity actions.

Of course, that'd require using the old dice version as well, lowering the amount of dice per action, rather than a set number of dice.. but that's a different topic.

I disagree that split actions going before Celerity is weaker... On the contrary, split actions followed by Cel actions puts the Celerity user at a considerable disadvantage. It means a human using normal means is actually moving BEFORE the guy with superhuman speed... Seems a little silly. I'm good with Celerity and Split actions occuring simultaneously, and if someone splits AND uses Celerity, they get considerably more.

Putting split actions with Celerity actions means that yes, humans can defend against supernatural speed, but it means they can't stake the vampire before the superhuman being has a chance to move.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

As it currently works, all extra actions take place at the end of the round in initiative order. That is not even something up for change vote at the moment. There are a couple of weird power exceptions to this (Focused Mind 4 specifically says the extra mental action happens at the same time as your regular action) but without a specific exception like that, all split actions are treated exactly as Celerity actions in every way except the dice pool.

[Just Evan]

Jul 6, 2013 14:50:18 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

As it currently works, all extra actions take place at the end of the round in initiative order. That is not even something up for change vote at the moment. There are a couple of weird power exceptions to this (Focused Mind 4 specifically says the extra mental action happens at the same time as your regular action) but without a specific exception like that, all split actions are treated exactly as Celerity actions in every way except the dice pool.

Huh... can you cite me a page number for that ruling? That isn't an interpretation I have run into before.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Vampire: The Masquerade Revised p. 208

Finally, all multiple actions (including actions gained through activating the Discipline of Celerity) occur at the end of the turn. If two or more characters take multiple actions, the actions occur in order of initiative rating. An exception is made for defensive multiple actions, such as multiple dodges, which happen when they need to happen in order to avert attack.

Vampire: The Masquerade Revised p. 153

…The actions occur at the end of the turn (the vampire's regular action still takes place her initiative roll).

V20 p. 272

Finally, all additional actions that turn (including actions gained through Celerity) occur at the end of the turn. If two or more characters take multiple actions, the actions occur in order of initiative rating. An exception is made for defensive actions, such as multiple dodges, which happen when they need to happen in order to avert attack.

V20 p. 142

…and extra actions occur at the end of the turn (the vampire's regular action still takes place her initiative roll).

[Kevin K]

Jul 10, 2013 16:39:10 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

Vampire: The Masquerade Revised p. 208

Finally, all multiple actions (including actions gained through activating the Discipline of Celerity) occur at the end of the turn. If two or more characters take multiple actions, the actions occur in order of initiative rating. An exception is made for defensive multiple actions, such as multiple dodges, which happen when they need to happen in order to avert attack.

So, the higher initiative character's actions all go before any of the lower initiative's? Eg:

Albert with wits+dex of 8 and celerity 3, splits dice pool 4 ways (1 everyman and 3 extras). Doesn't spend for celerity, and so has initiative 11.
Brian with same pools spends for celerity 3, and has initiative 8.

If no defensive actions, the Action order is:

Albert's everyman
Brian's everyman
Albert's first split action
Albert's second split action
Albert's third split action
Brian's first celerity action
Brian's second celerity action
Brian's third celerity action.


I haven't run all the numbers here, but it seems like the outcome is again similar: don't spend for celerity*. You'll lose initiative and get killed.

I'd have preferred that each extra action functions as a 'tick'. Basically, it's Albert/Brian/Albert/Brian until they run out of actions.

*assuming that spending for celerity removes those dice from your initiative pool.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

I interpret what is written to be exactly what you propose. "If two or more characters take multiple actions" I interpreted it as taking the same action. So it would go

Albert's Everyman
Brian's Everyman
Albert's First extra action
Brian's First extra action
Albert's Second extra action
Brian's Second extra action
Albert's Third extra action
Brian's Third extra action

[Jeff]

Initiative rating is determined before spending blood for a round, so no actually, spending for Celerity does not decrease your initiative. At least this is how I believe it.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Directly contradicted in V20 where we took this Celerity system from. Under the Initiative section it says that only the Celerity not spent for extra actions adds to Initiative.