Mick Says: Renown Days are here again!

[Willa]

So, Mick asked me to post that he'll be auditing renown this week, so come prepared with what your lovely characters have been up to.

Also, if you're minded to show up early, Mick will be there around 6:30 - 7:00 this week. ^^

[Ben]

^_^

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

Any ETA on when the expanded Renown chart will be available? I'm hoping there's more Honor stuff. Right now, by my calculations, I have exactly 2 Temporary Honor. I shall be the Eternal Cub, yessirree, at this pace I should see Cliath in May of 2008... Assuming my shennanigans with Bear don't get me Negative Honor, of course.

[benime]

The expanded Renown chart would have been printed last week, but the instructions I was given for finding it online were much at the last minute and didn't quite work out. Undoubtedly, Mick will be giving me an email so I can print out some copies of it this week, and I'm even planning on kickin' out a couple hundred character sheets too.

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

OK, thanks. I've ordered a copy of the Storyteller's Companion myself, so we'll see who gets it in first...

[Red Moon]

benime said:

The expanded Renown chart would have been printed last week, but the instructions I was given for finding it online were much at the last minute and didn't quite work out.

Did you try this site? bogya.tripod.com/info.html

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

Is this the one we're going to be using? Afraid there are so many editions, I'm never sure what goes where... It looks really good, though...it still doesn't help me. I'm doomed to be a cub forever! Most of the things that get you Honor aren't things anyone in their right mind would let a cub do -- mediate disputes, perform important rites, guarding the caern, being a pack Alpha... *sigh* I feel sorry for the new Philodox cubs that just came in, they're in for a rough road.

[benime]

Waitaminnit... no.

If you're just a cub, then your Rite of Passage should be earning you the renown you need to go from Cub to Cliath.

I'm getting kinda tired of how many corners we cut at this game.

[edit] And for the record, I'm totally not angry at you for any reason whatsoever. I just would like to see things done the way they're supposed to be done, for obvious reasons.

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

Corners? Not sure what you mean... I was told I had to earn 3 Honor in order to go through the Rite of Passage. And that's how it's been run in every other WW game I've played in... Also, truthfully, I wouldn't want to SEE what an ST would have to dream up to get a cub 30-odd points of Temporary renown, especially all Honor.

And I just got the book, and the link is exactly right; it's 4 PDFs of the four pages out of the Storyteller's Companion. So you can just post the link somewhere visible and call it good, if you want to be lazy about it.

[benime]

What the hell? I've always had what we're doing be described as incorrect, whereas a Rite of Passage is supposed to generate the renown necessary to attain the first rank. I mean, here you are, complaining about the fact that you don't know how you're supposed to gain that much renown, and you think that's how it's supposed to be? Even if I didn't think it was right, I'd still be inclined to believe that a "primer mission" designed to teach a cub what it's going to be doing as a full-fledged Garou would be ten times better than letting them muck it up for six months and then throwing a party at the end. Bah.

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

Well, the games I've played in up till now were MET and pre-Temporary Renown. It's a lot easier to do three Honorable things, than a whole string of ones and twos adding up to 30... Anyway, I'm not complaining. I'm all for finding a good solution! I just did the math and it's not looking promising for a straight Renown interpretation. And I do like a good dramatic Rite of Passage.

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

ANNOUNCEMENT: I have made photocopies of the Renown chart from the Companion that Mick said he was using. I will have them available for distribution at next game for anyone who is interested.

[benime]

daieden said:

ANNOUNCEMENT: I have made photocopies of the Renown chart from the Companion that Mick said he was using. I will have them available for distribution at next game for anyone who is interested.

Yay! *crosses that off his list*

[Red Moon]

So, am I hearing right that a cub has to earn 30 temp renown before he can go through his right of passage?

[benime]

redmoon said:

So, am I hearing right that a cub has to earn 30 temp renown before he can go through his right of passage?

When I get home I'm gonna look this stuff up.

[Athena Fire-in-Snow]

redmoon said:

So, am I hearing right that a cub has to earn 30 temp renown before he can go through his right of passage?

Well, the system was never written intending PCs to play cubs. What it says is that starting Cliath renown is "X", which in the case of Theurges, Philodoxes and Ahrouns is 3 Permanent Renown in their primary category. This would require a minimum of 30 Temporary then, probably more as some of it could be in the other two categories and not count toward the requirement.

Now, at what point the cub is permitted to go through the Rite of Passage is up for interpretation, as is how much Renown the 'Passage is worth. The books basically contradict themselves liberally (hey, this is WW, that's sort of a given) -- you can sort of glean an idea of when it should be based on stories, some narrative info (no rules) and bits of flavortext. All of these suggest that it happens rather early on. Some tribebooks suggest a fair amount of training first, with the 'Passage as a "final test". Others, like the Get book, suggest that they get thrown in after a week or two, and it's a "culling" process to kill off those too weak to be Garou, with training afterward. Again, no rules on how this links to Renown. But none of them seem to suggest the sort of time that would involve accumulating 3 of a single type of Renown (yes, the Ragabash and the Galliards have it somewhat easier here).

So for groups that allow cubs, some sort of compromise has to be reached...my best ideas so far:
1) Liberalizing the awarding of renown toward their minimum requirements (granting it for lesser deeds than normal for a Cliath), since a Cub is given fewer opportunities and responsibilities that would allow him to gain Renown.

2) Allowing cubs to go through their Rite of Passage irrespective of Renown, or perhaps after their first Permanent Renown. The "3 Renown" of a Cliath then becomes not a minimum, but the "average starting Cliath" that new people come in with, representing a bit of experience after their Rite of Passage.

3) Allowing cubs to go through their Rite of Passage at a point where successful completion would permit them to reach the 3 Permanent Renown they need to be a Cliath.

Of the three, I favor #2. It requires less effort from the STs than #3, and fewer judgement calls than #1. It also makes the 3 starting Renown make more sense to me...being "Rite of Passage" plus some basic Cliath experience...

So that's my humble opinion, in a not-so-small nutshell...

[zanAspera]

As someone who has played a cub for what I'm told was 'way too long' I'd prefer #1 as a player.

My character would disagree. As a wolf, he knows that males, females and cubs each have their own separate hierarchies and only the Omega role is enforced independently of Gender. Homid dominated Garou society does not recognize this as Wolf's way, or think this is without merit. This is one of many things that concern Talons about Garou society and make them wish to not be part of it. Of course they are the minority and will just have to deal with it in character. Take that, me!

Hmmm. Actually this approach is probably not without merit. Since it is the Den Father/Mother that decides when cubs are fully trained and are ready for adulthood. We could allow Den Parents (I think a sept our size should have two Den Parents) to hand out 'Cub Renoun' at their discretion. This would not normally be converted to Adult renown, which is assigned at the successful completion of the Right of Passage anyway. But perhaps it could in exceptional circumstances if they stories told were good enough.

If the Storytellers(who are way too overloaded with the overall story to give the cubs the kind of personal attention they require) wish to continue to manage cub renown with Adult renown, I would favour #1.

It makes sense to me that cubs might gain renown at 3 or 4 (or maybe 5 if ya wanna be quick about it) times basic up to their first 30 points. Accomplishments as a cub look really shiney. Legends like Davy Crockett's "Killed a bear when he was only three" while absurd at face value, still show that deeds done at a young age even if repeated again at an older age are just not the same when done when older.

"I killed a Black Spiral Dancer with just my teeth before making Cliath." sounds a lot more impressive "Sure I killed four BSDs last week".


No matter what system is used, there will have to be some judgment involved. Cubs can't use the adult chart and make RoP in a sane time frame unless someone lets them risk themselves in situations cubs should never be in.

This is definately a problem, and I have discussed with Chilimac the idea of my character helping out as a Den Brother to help cubs get to know their wolf side and any other help he may need. Laying the care for the new players at the feet of a single veterenplayer is not fair to either that player or the the new players. Idealy we'd have a ST for every pack plus one for the cubs, but we obviously don't have that many STs to go around.

[Pete Jones]

daieden said:

ANNOUNCEMENT: I have made photocopies of the Renown chart from the Companion that Mick said he was using. I will have them available for distribution at next game for anyone who is interested.

I'd like one please