THE DEATH OF VICTOR???

[Mike Lohmann]

There was a dispute about the rulings for the power used to kill Victor. I cant seem to access my email abount, so... i am doing this here... pls forgive me. i had told Adam how the power worked, and here is the proof that i said i could get ya!!!!

Dark Steel workings can be found on this page

www.fataladdiction.com/diablerie/threshers/combo.html

Now..... for those that are lazy.....

Dark Steel (Libellus Sanguinus 1, page 33) <not possable on diablerie>

Obtenebration 3, Potence 3

Where Arms of Ahriman normally allows a Lasombra to summon forth a tentacle of pure shadow to assault his foes, this bastardized power grants those psuedopods of darkness greater strength and endurance. Cainites used to dealing with the normal manifestation of this power may find themselves fatally suprised by the use of Dark Steel instead.

SYSTEM: Using Dark Steel requires a Manipulation + Occult roll (diff 7) and the expenditure of two Blood points. Each success summons forth one tentacle, which then appears from a nearby shadow (under a piece of furniture, from within the summoning vampire's cloak, etc.). The tentacles are all eight feet long and have Strength and Dexterity ratings equivalent to twice the vampire's Obtenebration rating. Furthermore, the vampire can expend a Blood Point, "feeding" it to the tentacles; for each point thus spent, the tentacle' ratings increase by one. A Dark Steel tentacle does Strength +2 crushing damage, has six Health Levels, and takes damage from fire and sunlight in addition to normal attacks. It costs 18 experience points to learn this power.
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What this means, is that things that killed Victor.... were said to have used potence and cel in their actions. They dont. cel and potence are not possesed by the Dark Steel Tenticles.

If this was done, then the power was used wrong. Which means, Victor might not be dead. I am not arguing the death, simply showing what the power does and does not do. STs have the option to say yes or no to the exact way the power works... i am only trying to provide information.

Anywho..... there ya go guys.

Via con dios.

[Kenneth Ashland]

I remember in MET that you could declare that your Shadow tentacles possessed either whatever your Potence rating was, OR whatever your Fortitude rating was, but not both at the same time. I don't believe Celerity was ever mentioned...

*makes a note to find his old MET book*

...regardless, we're not using MET rules anyway. If we're going by the rules in the Tabletop books, unless there's some random Obtenebration variant somewhere (and god knows there could be, in all that literature)...yeah. I can't recall any Obtenebration/Celerity mixes, and I was a Lasombra-freak for quite a while...

[Ivaret]

From what I've seen, yeah. I've gotta go with the boys on this. Nothing giving shadows cel. Not unless STs decided it.

[Deleted]

now if the player wanted to die in some fantastical way then ST's have the power hell for any reasons if the St's said they have cel then they do. Who are we to know what smart kindred have developed. We are not Lawers we are the players.

[Mike Lohmann]

Like I stated .. the only reason for this post, was to clear up some misunderstanding about how a power worked. It seemed to me, that noone was for sure how it worked, and myself being a previous player of a Las with DS... i thought i might ry to help clear up the technicalities of the power.

And as for teh MET power usage, I never played MET long enough to check on it, nor did i play a las in MET. Only Cappadocian =P (which btw, i am a cappie fanatic and expert... just though ya should know).

But like Ross said.. this is not MEt, this is dice based. Anywho... yeah... and stuff.

[David Price]

There was a year and a half ago a house rule that allowed potence to be applied through arms of the abyss. I don't recall us ever stating otherwise (although I should've remembered to bring up existing house rules, and I apologize for that), and it's never been written on the house rules either direction. Whether that house rule stands because of the lack of correction is a weird issue.

[Mike Lohmann]

Okay... i have to be an ass for a moment. If you allow a lasombra to add potence and cel to thier arms. that would just be retarded. Nothing would be able to stand up against it... things would die, very fast.. it would take an army to bring the arms and the caster down. I mean... 2dice per level for attack and damage, dmage being crushing (which is lethal, not bashing) +2.... think about it.. the average decent roll for a AotA roll is 5 tent... now iwth a person that has DS, they more than likely have ther Obten maxed. So that is... what? 10 dice to attack with, 12dice minimum for damge, because the arms -do- get the overage bonuss.. and its lethal. think.. if all hit.. then the damage is what? and average of 60damage in 5 hits? maybe more? its nasty... but adding potence and cel to all that, would just be twink. overpowered... but anywho.. had to rant a bit.. did it in the wrong section, but it pertained to this article.

[The Aquarian]

rolf said:

Insert quote of everyone here.

Woo! An Obtenebration question! Although I'm not an ST here, as a Lasombra-phile that has played many of them in table top and LARP, I can say that Dark Steele is a second edition Dark Ages combo discipline.

Now, what has been said here about MET is correct, in MET an Obtenebration user has the option to bestow their tentacles with either Potence or Forititude with the rationalization that Obtenebration is in fact not control over darkness but rather a semi-physical extension of the Vampire's self. This is not however true in table top.

I am not quite sure where my Libellus Sanquinis book is to confirm the wording mentioned above, but if I had to I could clean this Aquarian mess of mine and find it. No less I don't recall it allowing for Celerity. Potence yes... I believe so, but not Celerity. The MET version worked a little differently as tentacles already had access to Fortitude and Potence, but that version of power isn't being called into question, and thus I'm not going to dig up that MET journal.

One important thing to consider however (I wasn't there) is that if the Cainite in question was in Black Metamorphisis, or Black Metamorphisis on top of Tenebrous form, the tentacles from that transformation WOULD have CElerity and POtence and Fortitude because they are considered to be part of the vampire's 'physical' body with the same independant stats as an arm of the abyss, thus taking the best of both worlds. No less, they are only good for one attack, unlike Arms of the Abyss which would just be... foul.

OK I actually wasn't nearly as helpful as I'd hoped to be. Actually.... just a moment (as if you'd really know i was going AFK) I have my Guide to the High Clans here, I'm going to check and see if they have a revised version there.

..... a few minutes later.....

OK no revised version of Dark Steel. The closest thing that I can come up with that might yield those physical stats would be an Abyss Mysticism ritual called "Call the Hungry Shade" which summons a creature of the Abyss which would appear to be more or less the same as an Arm of the Abyss, only more intelligent and less controlable. They vary in power, but can possess any of the physical disciplines and could potentially wield Obtenebration up to 6. Depends on how big a spirit the character summons to aide him. More powerful the creature the harder it is to control.

Ultimately the more important thing is what the STs say. No PC has access to Dark Ages disciplines, so it's not like there's a double standard for the function of a discipline for PCs vs. NPCs. The question at hand is if this is an innocent mistake, or if the Staff was simply giving the city a greater challenge to overcome. Afterall, more people were in that scene than were not from what I understand.

Also, another important thing to consider is that if we are dealing with an elder NPC who might have learned the discipline when it was prominant, there's a chance that they may have an Obtenebration rating which exceeds 5. The reason that this is important is because level 6 and up in disciplines are not "true" power levels.

That is, from an IC perspective, they are not fixed abilities like the basic levels 1-5. Characters that reach level six are actually just making up new powers for a discipline they are intimately familiar with as they go, unless they have been taught by someone else. The powers listed in the books are just suggestions to give people so that STs don't have to pull out their hair coming up with a way to balance home brewed abilities.

That being said, if you were facing a Lasombra with level 6-7 Obtenebration, then these effects are entirely possible.

My two cents for now...

[Mike Lohmann]

Ummm... yeah.... uhhh... thanks?