Multiple Positional Status

[Kenneth Ashland]

Hey all.

Adam ("Daddy" Adam, not STAdam) brought this up at game, and I have to admit that it's something that I've completely not caught in my time as Harpy, but the Status rules on the ECC site say:

Though it is possible to hold multiple Camarilla stations, a kindred may only claim the status inherent to one of the offices, usually whichever is greater.

So, technically, those of you that have in the past, or are currently, holding more than one Positional Status, by the rules, shouldn't have been.

Off the top of my head, this currently pertains to Charissma Starr, and maybe Kevin the Keeper (depending of which way the Malkavians minds are at any given instant).

But, rather than suddenly zap people down in Status, I guess I would ask the players/STs:

Since this 'violation' of the rules has been going on, I think, even before I had this job, and no one has minded, do we adjust the rule or retroactively adhere to it?

Thnx.

[Squirrels / Constant]

I am of the stance that if it was missed, but now caught, then we just fix it moving forward.

Hopefully it doesn't come up very often though since it also says on the boards....

"There are a variety of positions within Camarilla society and new ones are occasionally created. Each position has certain advantages, disadvantages and abilities. It is rare, but not unheard of, for a Kindred to hold more than one position."

[Kenneth Ashland]

Alrighty then.

Sorry Charissma: Primogen probably overrides a Lesser Harpy position, so "Sharp" will be nixed in lieu of "Revered."

For Kevin, he'll lose "Revered" since

1) He might not be Primogen anymore anyway, and

2) Keeper is probably more prominent than Primogen, in the grand scheme of things.

thx

[Squirrels / Constant]

You are aware that the lesser positions don't confir actual status right?

I'm not sure where "Sharp" came from... Here is from our status page.

"The Harpy and the Sheriff are allowed to create lesser versions of their positions. These positions are the Lesser Harpy and the Deputy Sheriff. Lesser Harpies refer to the Harpy who granted them their positions as the Greater Harpy.

Lesser Harpies can strip or add negative status only once per night, but can report other breaches of decorum to the Greater Harpy if need be.

In order to appoint a Vampire to an Assistant position, the holder of the parent position must loan a Status Trait to the recipient and declare the appointment to the rest of the Domain.

Creating an Assistant does not diminish the status of the creator, but the number of status the parent position has limits the number of Assistants they can create.

A Harpy can create for free one Lesser Harpy for each Positional status they have been granted by the Primogen.

A Sherriff can create for free a number of deputies equal to the total amount of Status (both Positional and Personal) they have. The Sheriff may choose what functions a Deputy my perform, limiting a deputy's power in any way they see fit."

By this, the loan, in not diminishing the status of the parent position, doesn't increase the lesser positions status. Otherwise, it's status for free. It's termed a loan so that you can see exactly how many you can have, based on your status.

[Kenneth Ashland]

Well, as I was told, and as Kevin had it before me as Harpy, Lesser Harpies get point of "Sharp," and Deputies get "Feared."

But again, I'm going off of things that were in place when I began. If deputy-type jobs aren't supposed to be given status, maybe I'm just following the coattails of some unofficial policy...

[kevinz]

My feelings on the subject where that it was ok while the people who where exploiting it got away with it. Once they where removed from their position, many people banded together OOC as well as IC to “clarify the rules”. It would have been more appropriate for the “clarification” to be resolved before their position was in question. You made a decision and I respect it. I prefer next time that such “rule changes” happen a little earlier. My character has enough Cam Lore to know that most people cannot hold multiple status giving positions; however, *I* personally did not. Better communication may be needed.

Edited because someone felt i needed to remove my last paragraph for its "not so tactfulness"

[Kenneth Ashland]

Well, really, this wasn't a "rules change." In fact, technically, it was Ross being ignorant of a portion of the written, and thus already established, rules.

But as it hadn't become an issue before, I thought it best to ask whether the "policy by mistake" might not as well become the "official policy." But it's not, so it's not. So really, my mistake was the "rules change." Now we're back to even.

Oh, and re-reading the "Assistant" portion again -

If a Harpy/Sheriff is allowed as many assistants as they have status, but:

In order to appoint a Vampire to an Assistant position, the holder of the parent position must loan a Status Trait to the recipient and declare the appointment to the rest of the Domain,

wouldn't giving the backing of "Sharp" or "Feared" be the same as loaning a Status trait for the sake of endorsing them as an assistant?

If not, how should the loaning of Status Traits to assistants be registered?

[kevinz]

I have a great suggestion. Why don't people put thier position in thier profile like you have "The Harpy" listed
Also... I haven't had a chance to look closely at harpynet; however, can't someone who has a scripting background add an editable section under their name called "Title". I don't know if the capability is there at this time. Maybe the status, "Lesser Harpy (NS)" (NS) for No Status or what ever.

Also, does the above posts in this thread mean that I can hold both Primagon and Keeper but only gain 1 status trait as keeper while maintaining both positions. I would really like to know so I can get this outta my head. Also... could you add a "Revered (NS)" meaning I have primogen but am gaining no status for it if the above is true

[Paige Fairchild]

I'm pretty sure that you can't hold an actual Inner Court position and be Primogen at the same time. If your clan gets primogen representation, then they have enough people for it to not be an Inner Court member. The reason behind this is because when you are an Inner Court member, your primary concern needs to be the domain and your responsiblities to it. If you also have the responsiblities to represent your clan and solve its inner problems (and inter-clan issues), one of your two duties will be neglected.

Believe me, there were plenty of times while I was playing Aimy (she went from Malkavian Primogen to Seneschal to the city's first Chamberlin) that she wished she could be Inner Court and also Primogen. I'm pretty sure that the only reason that Charissma got away with it is because there was a point when all the other Toreador were 1) new to the city 2) in poor standing with their clan or 3) in poor standing with the city at large.

[kevinz]

I hear you on wanting to hold both positions.

My concern was not regarding Charisma starr as that has been "explained" away. It was a different player.

I am interested in the clarification from an ST regarding what is listed on their website. Also, which overwrites which: website or forum? They both can be easily edited/updated. This is a question that should be asked regardless to this thread.

[Paige Fairchild]

I only mentioned her because she is the only exception to this issue that I know of, so I thought I would mention it. I can't think of any reason why this would be a concern for any clan with members in the Inner Court at this time, though, as I think that each of those clans does have someone capable who could be the primogen besides the member they have in the Inner Court.

And since the only clan having Primogen issues right now is Malkavian, I would assume that you want to know if you could be both Keeper and Primogen, right? Well, if your character thinks it's possible, then there is no reason not to try, even though it's usually not allowed. At the very least, it creates some inter-clan politicking, and it could lead to character driven plots if it causes enough of an issue and someone (or several someones) decide(s) to get even at a later date.

[kevinz]

It sure is causeing an issue. Quite a few things are in the works for that multi-laterally from multiple clans (multi-tascular in a multiple kinda multiple; multifly speaking... of course). Planning is fun; however, I digress. I am so off topic I'm lost. At 1:45 am.

[Alex Rourke]

So as far as I understand this, a Primogen can hold an inner court position because Primogen is appointed by clan, Court is appointed by Prince (with notable exception to the Harpy).

The Prince can do what ever the hell he wants. He's prince after all and only a Justicar, Archon or Harpy (and only with the backing of at least 4 of the 7 Primogen) can tell a Prince he's out of line.

If a clan decides to take say, the Chamberlain (who was appointed such by the Prince) and say "OK, you're also Primogen" The only one who can say no is the Prince in stating that he refuses to recognize said individual as a Primogen representative. Most Princes won't do that, as ignoring a clan's chosen Primogen is a good way to lose that clan's support in that they feel the Prince refuses to acknowledge their right to govern themselves as a clan.

So, in the case of Charissma now, and who ever in the past, If the Prince doesn't have an issue with a Primogen holding a court position, and the clan is cool with the fact that the domain gets the attention first, there really isn't a reason why a Primogen can't hold a court position and vice versa.

Now I think I know who Dustin is refering to, and I'm guessing this is the case where Calebrose told Jean-Lionel you're either keeper or you're primogen. If I recall right, Jean-Lionel was running around like a chicken with his head cut off, either dealing with Brujah issues or he was unreachable since he was in a court meeting.

Keep in mind that the Brujah are a large clan and at the time there were more Brujah than any other clan in the city. Trying to deal with either the needs of 30 individual vampires as the Keeper or 10 vampires as Brujah Primogen would be a bit hard. That's just how it went down and Jean couldn't dedicate enough time to both city and clan. With smaller clans, that's not as much of a problem.

Additionally, that's what the position of Whip is for. If a Primogen is too busy (or too lazy) to deal with something, they send the whip to handle the immediate details and come back with a report for the primogen to deal with at their earliest convenience.

So ultimately, there's no OOC rule, or IC vampire law that says "You cannot hold a court position and be Primogen."

As far as status goes (and Ross feel free to correct me here) Inner court overrides Primogenship, Primogenship overrides apprentice (ie lesser harpy or deputy)

On the Matter of Charissma, while she may have been voted as Primogen for any of the reasons in question, it would have been just as easy for Calebrose, or Goldwin to say "Ms. Starr, as you are now Primogen I do not believe you will be as effective in your role as Chamberlain, therefore I am relieving you of your duties as Chamberlain and placing (insert qualified vampire here) as my new chamberlain. Thank you for your loyal service and best of luck in your elevated role."

So in the end, it all comes down to "The Prince said so"

Just my .02

[Mike Lohmann]

Actually, if you wanna get technical... a Prince. appoints everything. Even himself, in essence. A little thing called Praxis. A kind Prince will allow each clan to pick thier Primogen, a more traditional one will pick it for them. Most dont like princes that appoint everything themselves.. but then again.. if such a prince is in power, those that speak out dont usually stick around long to make much of a noise about it.

[Ivaret]

As much as I'm loathed to agree with Rolf, it's true. The Prince assigns his court, and Inner Council. Including the Primogen. If he so decided, he could have a Nosferatu primogen for the Toreador, and a Gangrel primogen for the Ventrue.

[Kenneth Ashland]

I've been trying to answer my own question regarding "Deputy" positions. Here's what I've come up with; lemme know what you think:

So, the parent position has to back their assistant(s) with a Loaned status, but doing so does not diminish their own standing.

So, effectively, this is a "phantom" status, that counts towards one's total so long as they are a recognized assistant.

Since the backing has to come from the total of the Parent position, it would be logical to say that the 'Phantom' status would have to be something the Parent possesses. So, in Rochelle's case:

- Acknowledged, Supportive, Knowledgeable, Feared, Experienced

So, she can have up to 5 deputies, and she can mark one as "Feared," one as "Experienced," and so on. It doesn't diminish her total, but is loaned support from her standing. She'd have to do so in public, give the little "thumbs up" sign, and quote the specific trait she's imparting.

Now, in the Harpy's case, currently, the traits given him by the individual Primogen are not defined, i.e I have it that Kenneth has "Gangrel Primogen Support," as an 'unofficial status,' mainly because [Clan]-Primogen-Support entered 8 times into HarpyNet would...not be aesthetically pleasing.

So, similar to the Sheriff, the individual Primogen would have to specify a particular status of their own that they are lending the Harpy in support of that person's position.

So, I'd go around IC, and get the Primogen to cite something in particular from their own standing. Then I wouldn't have to conjure "Sharp" for my assistants, but rather choose from the list available.

Does all that make sense? I fear I've gone and written up VCR instructions...

[Shakir Movre']

All I want to know is "Where is the remote, I want to change the channel."

[Alex Rourke]

Here's the way I see it: OK, so the court members bestow phantom status onto their apprentices in the form of saying "So and so is 'blah'" thumbs up. This doesn't actually give them status, it simply means that they are looked upon in a higher regard from their peers and are acknowledged as being aides to the Harpy/Sheriff. Thus it functions similar to the Prestigeous Sire Merit in the granting of phantom status.

[Kevin K]

Here's what I remember from being Harpy. If you wanted to have a "deputy", then you were supposed to loan them status. But that meant that your own status was decreased. A Sheriff with strong Deputies didn't make any sense, so that's where the no-loss-loan came in.

One solution discussed for that was: why doesn't the Deputy or Lesser Harpy just loan one right back? That would avoid the need for additional rules, and resolve the status-loss problem nicely. The problem is that it makes *sense* for your status to increase because you're a deputy. Your consideration in Camarilla Society should increase because the Sheriff announces that (s)he relies upon your services.

Is this status for free? I don't think that it is, so long as the other Kindred, Prince included, are doing their job. You haven't granted status, you've loaned it. If those to whom you've loaned your good name screw up, it *must* come back to haunt you. If it doesn't, there needs to be a very good IC reason for your avoidance.

Loans are risky business.

-Kevin

[Gorf]

Actually Ross, as I read your last post, I was thinking that you might not have to choose from a new list of status given to you from each clan. Their support for you can be "We think that the new harpy is Sharp and thus support his as harpy." That way all the "Sharp's" that you've lent out can stay that way and it can be a generic status that is understood to be a support from a clan to a Harpy, given when they are elected by the Primogen.

Just a thought to K.I.S.S.