Lores.

[Mike Lohmann]

Okay. I dont put thing elequently.. nor can i spell too well, but something has been eating away at my soul.

The way we do the Lores thing, is making my face twitch every time i think about it. I was told. that because I dont have a lore of this, and a lore of that, that i dont know things that arent technically lore.

First off, let me point out that this is 3rd edition, right? #rd edition does not use lores. Thats 2nd. SDo.. using lores is kinda odd, but beyond that... there needs to be a difference made between actual common kindred knowledge, and lores.

Me for example. My character has a bio that was 2-3 pages long when i turned him in. In it it gives reasoning for having certain info or 'lore levels' now.. because i didnt have enough xp to try to get him to what he should be, by a months time, i have to now validate IC teachings of a current status, to get those. Thats kinda crappy, but its whatever.

The big thing is... telling us what we do and dont know. Saying that you have to have sabbat or cam lore to understand what the term shovel head means, is kinda odd. Or my character, who is a diablerist.... does not understand how to diablerize or what it means, by the lorules in sbc, because he does not have kindred lore 3. That is kinda rediculous. He is also a primogen.. but because he does not have a cam lore of the high nature, he doesnt know what a primogen is? Blah. Some thigns are common kindred info... others are lore. Like... knowing that a Harbringer of Skulls is actually a Cappadocian that was trapped within the abyss for 2000 years, then got out and declared itself sabbat, due to the truce the cam made with the giovanni....THAT is lore. Or that Gangrel are usually what is used to make gargoyals.... that is lore. Not, "Shovelhead" or "Primogen".

anywho.. yeah.. and stuff... blah.. bad stuff... ugh... gotta stop ranting at 4:39 in the morn

[Ivaret]

Actually, common kindred knowlege is basic lore, it's just that normally when a vampire has been around a while, they gain it. Like, take for instance Rolf. He's been around enough to get at least Sabbat one, but he doesn't know the complete ins and outs of the Sabbat. He could try to get by, but probably wouldn't work.

Just like a Sabbat trying to get by on the Cam. Or a Tzimisce trying to pose as a Ventrue. You just don't know enough about them to pull it off. That's why lore is important. Ya nevah know when shit like that will happen. Besides, it's part of what makes the game real. Very few characters in game have faced off against a Demon. Victor had, but even he didn't know the exact way to exorcise it, and return it back to the foul pits of hell from whence it came.

Personally, I like lores, even if I don't have much of them. I think it's a great little tool.

[Joseph Mayek]

Well, one thing I might point out. That when they were saying stuff like kindred lore 3 is diablerie, or 2 was blood bonds.. You need to keep in mind they were generalizing. Stuff like Blood Bonds, Diablerie, Ghouls, The Embrace is Kindred lore 2 (see list below). I believe they were trying to get across that you -need- lores to know specifics. The matter of 2nd or 3rd edition is moot, imo.

Lores add to the game and give those touches to a character that can make all the difference. Clan lores specfically. Most people -don't- know shit about one another's clans. Only -stereotypes-, which isn't the truth.

This even includes your own clan, too. If you haven't been -taught-, then you don't know. You just know that stereotype. You don't need much to know "the basics", a Clan lore of 2 will give you a generalize knowing of the workings of your clan.

And, before any of you complain about needing a lore to know some of the truths about your own clan. Are you really going to bitch that -3- xp (for Clan lore 2), or only 2!! freebies on creation! is too much to know some truth?

And if you think you should know clan lore 3 or 4, or *gapes* 5.
Do you really expect your sire to pour out every little detail of your clan's history, tell every little deep dark secret, every little shift in power? Really, i think not. Your Sire's have better things to do with their time. You'll have to ask around and do abit of investigating to find out more than clan lore 2 or 3.

Or, on the other hand, if you're not investigating.. I think another good way to judge what lore you should have, is by the age you decided for your character. (IF they're not investigating, just 'learning' through experience and chatting)

1 dot for Fledgings - Variable Age
2 dots for Neonates - ?-100
3 dots for Ancillae - 100-300
4 dots for Elders - 300-1000
5 dots for Ancients - 1000+ (What the hell are you doing awake and walking into Elysium?)


Again, like I said, that would be about what I think it should be for a Kindred -not- actively researching their clan, condition, or sect. Just 'hanging about'.. learning the ropes. (This is my opinion, and it's generalized, ST's feel free to correct me)

Way I see it, skip buying that 'extra' dot in some skill or another if you don't want to 'learn' it all IC. You want to say you're blah blah old, or blah blah Knowledgable. Buy the dots and back it up, even if you don't have the high ass disciplines, at least you've got the -knowledge- of an Ancilla, or Elder, the other stuff can come later. It'd be a good idea to put equal dots for whatever age you're playing, to buy whatever Sect you're apart of, And Kindred Lore, too.

The specifics of what you get for your lores is on the ECC site.

So, just as an FYI... let's post some of it here, for those that don't troll the ECC site as some of us do.

Kindred Lore(Insider Only)

Kindred Lore 1: What a Fledgling would know

• Basic understanding of the necessities (blood) and the banes (fire, sunlight, and wooden stake) of a vampiric existence.
  
• Rumor that the biblical Caine was the first vampire.
  Some say Kindred war among themselves, for various reasons.
  
• Know many common Kindred specific terms.
  
• The concept that raw power comes from the blood
  
• You know that Kindred are separated into "Clans", tracing their heritage back to a single very old Kindred.
  
• You are aware of the names of the most common "Clans" in your area (i.e. Brujah, Toreador, Lasombra. Etc.)
  
• Understands the traditions surrounding Elysium
  

Kindred Lore 2: What a common Kindred would know

• The concept that the closer one is to Caine the more power a kindred possesses
  
• You understand the Embrace, the Blood Bond, creating Ghouls and Diablerie
  
• Has heard of the Book of Nod
  
• Has a rough knowledge of major events in Cainite History, such as the First City, Second City, Carthage, Anarch Rebellion, Founding of the Camarilla and Sabbat, etc
  
• Can give short descriptions (equal to the descriptions in Laws of the Night) for 7-9 clans
  
• Some say the world will come to an end when the eldest awake.
  

Kindred Lore 3: What an Experienced Kindred would know

• Can name the 13 clans and knows the V:TM, V:PG, and S:PG descriptions, in general specific terms. Includes the common weakness of each clan.
  
• Has a basic understanding of the ten primary Disciplines (Animalism, Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude, Obfuscate, Protean, Presence, Potence, Thaumaturgy)--think general overview but not detailed V:TM write-ups
  
• May have heard rumors about one of the rare clan-specific disciplines (Chimestry, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Quietus, Serpentis, and Vicissitude)
  
• Knows several of the legends of the First Days or Gehenna.
  
• Knows many of the old terms and their meanings
  
• Can name a couple of the Antediluvians
  
• You have heard rumors of Golconda
  
• You know of the Gangrel/Tzimisce war against the Tremere.
  

Kindred Lore 4: What a Scholar would know

• You know the commandments of Caine (Pg. 76-77, 84-85 Book of Nod)
  
• Basic knowledge of the minor bloodlines, to include disciplines common to them - think general overview but not detailed V:TM write-ups
  
• Knowledge of a few of the Elder powers available in the ten primary Disciplines (Expert Disciplines)--again think general description not detailed write-ups
  
• Has heard rumors of the Inconnu
  
• May know something about Golconda
  
• Can name many Antediluvians and many of the major Methuselahs-- may know some vague legends about them
  
• Can see the hidden meanings in night-to-night Kindred politics.
  

Kindred Lore 5: What an Elder would know

• A working familiarity with several editions, variora, and translations of the Book of Nod as well as some other apocryphal writings
  
• Experience with Cainite society is likely to be more accurately measured in millennia rather than mere centuries
  
• Knows some general details about the Jyhad and who the some of the real players are.
  
• Know the legends surrounding the Diablerie of the Antediluvians (Saulot, Brujah, Cappadocius)
  
• Has probably seen the equivalent to a full copy of the Book of Nod (although several drastically different versions exist)
  
• Having suspicions where an Antediluvian sleeps
  
• Know about the City of Enoch in the Shadowlands, and its recent destruction
  

Camarilla Lore(Insider Only)

Camarilla Lore 1: What an unreleased childe would know

• There exists a secret society of vampires, which keeps itself hidden from the mortal world.
  
• That you are never to expose your new vampiric nature to any non-vampire.
  
• Vampires refer to themselves as "Kindred", the use of the term "vampire" is offensive to some Kindred.
  
• You have heard of a group of Laws, known as "The Traditions", but are uncertain as to the specifics or interpretation of these, and if asked to repeat them are probably screwed.
  
• You understand the very basics of the Camarilla Social Structure, and know of the proper place and behavior of an unreleased childe. You know that you and the one that made you may be destroyed for your actions, if inappropriate.
  
• You know of the Tradition of Elysium, in that it is a safe place, which cannot be soiled by violence, or other acts of disrespect.
  

Camarilla Lore 2: What a newly fledgeling would know

• You know "The Traditions" and can state them without hesitation; you also know the common interpretations of them. (Pg. 18-20 MET Camarilla Guide)
  
• You know the powers and responsibilities of the Domain Officers, and who holds them within your domain. (i.e. Sheriff, Harpy, Keeper of Elysium, etc.)
  
• You know the basics of the Prestation System. (Trivial, Minor, Major, Blood, Life) and are able to participate in the system of Boons.
  
• You have heard rumors of other groups of Kindred, but know no specifics of their sects. (I.e. Independents, Aututark, and Sabbat), you may have even met some kindred, which claim not to belong to the Camarilla.
  
• You have heard the names of nearby Camarilla Princes, other kindred of high standing (5+ in status), and those of the Oathsworn
  
• You tend to use the Common Parlance when speaking of things (pg. 59 V:TM)
  
• You know how to present a childe for release to the Prince,
  

Camarilla Lore 3: What and experienced Kindred would know

• You know the basic history of the Camarilla
  
• You know of the Clan head, and their powers.
  
• You know well the stereotypical horrors and tales of the Sabbat. (No specific powers or clans, but general tales of horror)
  
• You may have heard about a Conclave.
  
• You know of the Edict of Barbs/Convention of Thorns.
  
• You know of the Traditions and procedures of Princes Symposium, the level of politics that pits Prince against Prince.
  
• You know of the Red List, and who has been made Anathema.
  
• You know the system of Prestation in and fleece boons out of young Kindred out of habit.
  
• You know the intricate details of the Blood Hunt or Lextalionis (pg. 137-140 The Guide to the Camarilla)
  
• You know of the Treaties with the Assamites and Giovanni, and the specifics of such.
  
• You know the unwritten traditions and customs of the Camarilla (The Protocols of the Camarilla)
  

Camarilla Lore 4: What a Scholar would know

• You tend to use the Old Form when speaking (pg. 60 V:TM)
  
• You know how to contact and approach an Archon…properly.
  
• You can identify most cities of the chronicle as Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch held
  
• You know that the Followers of Set were asked to join the Camarilla at its founding, and that they declined.
  
• You know the names of public Archons and the Justicar that they serve.
  
• You know the proper Traditions and Customs of a Conclave or Prince's Tribunal, and the use of Ordeals.
  

Camarilla Lore 5: What an Elder would know

• You know of the existence of the Alastors, and other "divisions" of Archons (pg. 6-22 Archons and Templars), Not detailed descriptions, but rather that such "specialties" exist.
  
• You are or were known as a major voice of the Camarilla of your Domain and beyond.
  
• You know how the Justicars are selected, and of the politics involved at such a level.
  
• You know how to contact a Justicar… and probably even survive.
  
• You know the names, and clans of the Founders, as well as the details of the very founding of the Camarilla
  

To continue learning what specific lores will let you know, See this page Chris took the effort of creating for your perusal!
www.emeraldcitychronicles.com/95401/95463.html

[carlogiovanni]

These are very good points that Drake brings up

Also I know that we use Lores here at Emerald Chronicles because of this....

Timmy Tremere gets bored and starts to research the Camarilla history and what makes the mellenia old institution tick... (so through roleplaying he starts to bring the topic up during conversation)

Nicky Nosferatu (who's player happens to know everything about the topic) decides to lecture on the formation, existence and (most importantly) the secrets of the Camarilla. Spouting off all the hidden truths of the as if they were bullet points in a TPS report

Reasons why we have Lore Dots:

1. because knowledge is power, the more you have the more powerful you are
2. power is guarded jealously, to prevent others from learning as much as you
3. realisticly why in Kane's name would anyone teach someone so many secrets about the Camarilla without that person being very important in the Camarilla in the first place
4. because we have many scholars of the White Wolf world in this game and the amount of supposudly "secret" informaion about anything and everything White Wolf would instantaneoulsy dissappear as everyone will know everything about the World of Darkness
5. If you have a dot in a lore that means you've spent points on it.. tha means that it must be respected as any other trait and kept in mind
6. We (STs & Players) need a way to measure the amount of facts that a character knows.

[Jonathan Winters-Garden]

So... to have ghouls you have to buy kindred lore to two dots. If you start with ghouls your not going to be given it for free i'm assuming.

Also, Mike (Rolf) made a damn good background and there is no way he can buy his character up to were he wants him at character gen. Does that mean he has to keep justifying his actions or should the ST's just give him the dots? No… (you obviously haven't seen his background) uuuh why not? I vote yes.

I don't like the idea of prerequisites. Does that mean your going to start putting prerequisites on disciples too? (IE I have to have a dice pool of at least 6 to learn Auspex second dot). If not then why start it with lores if yes then uuuh... why?

Maybe you should cap how many ghouls and how high of a blood bond you can have based on lore’s. IE: kindred lore works similar to the way linguistic works. I think that’s much better than changing game dynamics and adding prerequisites.

On another note: My character has enough Sabbat Lore to know about diablerie, blood bonds and ghouling (oh my)... so why can't I do it again? You want me to spend expierence on lores? High enough Sabbat lore and you not only know that they do it but how they do it even if you don't know how it works.
I can wire/rewire a house but that doesn't mean I have any idea how it works on a molecular level or have the foresight to turn off the power before starting.

[Joseph Mayek]

Oh, I don't believe anyone said anything about prequisites.

By all means, don't have the Kindred lore 2 and have a ghoul.

How often do you feed it?
Once a day? A week? Whenever they ask for it?

What are mortals called that you let drink your blood?
Well.. they have some kindred like powers.. but appear to be able to walk in the day. Maybe they're Half-Vampires!

These are what lores let you know. Sure, you can feed mortal's blood and make ghouls, doesn't mean you know exactly what you're doing. Not without some trial and error tests.. which after experiementing about, you'd likely have the knowledge to buy up your Kindred lore... I'd think.

If you create a kick ass background and there's no way you can buy up the character to where ya want em.. Well, maybe you should save up some more exp before you put it in Game. And if you're starting a Character with more than starting dots, freebies, 50 xp(Which equates to about Half a Year of Games.) and another 8 xp (for a month of game) justified in the background, well, maybe you're reaching abit far..

Also, I know there are occasions that if you tell the ST something like "Look, I'm gonna be short at the end of the month, but this character -needs- *insert some ability, attribute, etc* and it's fully justified in my background." I'm pretty sure the ST would look it over, see if it's fair, and give it the "thumb's up" if it's cool.

I mean, are you to say that I should be able to write up an absolutely stunning background for a methuselah and get things that others would have to work for and justify through roleplay? I don't believe that's appropriate.

Don't get me wrong, I do know what it's like. My background on Joseph was 8 or 9 pages long. He's a character I've played for years... And bringing him here he was hacked back down to a starting character with not half the things he'd once had.

Of course I'm not going to have all the things I'd had on him when he'd had 5 years or so of xp soaked into him.. and I'm not going to have the next 5 years of xp to be spent at -this- game justified because of his background. Hell, the loss of stuff is a part of his background, too.

The point is he -was- a starting character. His background was -information-. He wasn't a 6 month, or a year old SBC character.

And, if you're wanting to play an experienced character, what's more important than the -knowledge- of an experienced kindred?

And, once again.. I don't believe anyone ever said lores were prerequisites. Just really good idea's to buy, if you don't want to screw up. So, it's really all in your hands.

As for making a cap of how high of a blood bond or how many ghouls you can have based on lores like linguistic.. well I don't see the point in that. For only -2- freebies, or -3- xp, you know ALL you need to know about Blood Bonds, Ghouls, and Diablerie.
Remember, it doesn't mean you -can't- do these things without the lores. Just means you don't know what the fook yer do'n.

And I'm not sure what Sabbat lore has to do with diablerie, blood bonds, or ghouling? That's a Sect lore, having to do with things like the Vaulderie, Hiearchy, sabbat rites, etc. You might know the Vaulderie is a ritual of 'sharing' blood, maybe that it has some kind of mutal bonding effects. But that's not the Blood bond.

Or, if you're going on into 'wire/rewire' a house, which, putting into game terms, I believe would be an aspect of the Science ablity. Going from speaking of lores, to Secondary ablities, which, just to note, aren't prerequisites either. It's just a more exact knowledge, skill, talent, etc of a other ablities.

In fact, you could say that's pretty much what lores are, too.

For instance, with occult high enough, you've probably heard it all.. all the clan weaknesses, the traditions, the rites, etc etc.. I mean, you go read tons on Vampires in the library, you're prolly gonna find it all.
But without those lores to specify that knowledge down, you've no clue which are truth, which are lies, where the truths apply, to what clans, what sects, that there -are- specfic clans..
So -that's- why the myths are all different! Some kindred can't see a reflection, some myths say they're horrid creatures, some say seductive creatures.. Now it all makes sense why there are so much dissent among vampire myths. It's the -Lasombra- that don't have a reflection, the Nosferatu -are- beaten with an ugly stick, and damn those Toreador are right out of Anne Rice books!

Not knowing the exacts of molecules and such might not be required for rewiring a house, but I tell ya, if you know the trig and calc formula for ohms, volts, etc for eletronics.. you're going to have a much more energy efficient house, and much less chance of short circurts or electric fires.

Okie, I'm done babbling!

[Paige Fairchild]

I have yet to see anyone point out that the idea that lores are obsolete in Revised is wrong. While there are no Lores covered in the main book, Black Hand Lore and Underworld Lore are both written up in the Sabbat guide, Clan Knowledge (I'm pretty sure this is outsider Clan lore) is written up, although vaguely, in the Camarilla guide, and it also mentions Faerie, Kindred, Lupine Mage and Wyrm Lore as viable knowledges.

[Joseph Mayek]

There are City Lores, too!

And I did say it was a moot point, tho

[Paige Fairchild]

You didn't say that they are found in Revised, either. I was just making it clear that the idea that lores were obsolete was erroneous.

It was just my inner rules lawyer showing through. ;D

[Justin]

they aren't lores anymore from 3rd ed. they are all knowledges instead of lores, so yea one can make a point in saying lores aren't used in the books, or one can say they have just changed the terminology is all.

[Gorf]

jorundr said:

they aren't lores anymore from 3rd ed. they are all knowledges instead of lores, so yea one can make a point in saying lores aren't used in the books, or one can say they have just changed the terminology is all.

Jorundr, I'm gunna be blatant and blame it on the Percoset. You're Wrong. The 3rd edition Storyteller's Companion lists "Camarilla Lore", "Sabbat Lore", and "Sewer Lore". So, yes, 3rd edition does use Lores. They also use knowledges, such as "Area Knowledge".

Thank you Diandra for making that clear originally.

Oh, and by the way, under Camarilla Lore 3 it gives the example of "What any Nosferatu or Tremere would know", so do you really think everyone should be able to get that easily?...

[Justin]

Gorf thanks for pointing that out to me, I haven't played Vampire in ages and it skiped my mind,and being late my mind set wasn't like it normally is (which is bad anyways) and you are right. I realized that after I had looked it up yesterday and realized that I had made a mistake, thank you for pointing that out though for the others to know about the lore.

[Steve]

gorf said:

Oh, and by the way, under Camarilla Lore 3 it gives the example of "What any Nosferatu or Tremere would know", so do you really think everyone should be able to get that easily?...

Well, not everyone... what about Nos or Tremere, though? Should every Cam-loyal Nos or Tremere start game with that much Cam-lore?

[Clark Davis]

Well, yes. That's what freebies are for.

[Elspeth]

To follow Brian up, it's a total of 3 freebies for Cam Lore 3. not really that much of a difference in the long run, and can be good for the character.

[Kevin K]

I think the problem that we're trying to correct is one of perception. Lores aren't a "polish and round out my character" kind of thing, any more than Melee, Empathy, or Alertness are. Lores are an integral part of the rating of your character's knowledge and abilities. You wouldn't write up a computer hacker and not buy Computer skill, right? Don't write up an elder and forget to buy your Lores.

Why are lores important? They help remind us to roleplay the differences in our characters. Sect lore (like Camarilla and Anarch) helps remind us to roleplay the ignorance and stereotypes that are appropriate. Interacting with those of another sect is difficult if you are inexperienced with them. Knowing how to treat a Prince or a Baron is just as potent a knowledge as how to clear your jammed pistol, or as how to parry a blow with your sword.

An even more dire example with Kindred/Camarilla Lore: If your character wants to prepare for/defend against specific Discipline usages (Dominate, Presence, Obfuscate) you will have to have the Lore (or the ability yourself) to put your plan in place. Without those Lores, your approach to the situation is meta-gaming(*), and will have to be changed. The same would be true about taking elaborate precautions for avoiding surveillance without Security, or making elaborate financial plans without Finance.

$.02

-Kevin

(*) Just to be clear, I haven't had a single "lore police" interaction where I thought the mis-use was intentional. Not a single one. It's all honest mistakes, and so far, easily reconciled.

[David Price]

I think one of the things that people have been grumpy about is the "If you don't buy it you forget about it." clause, and it probably deserves some clarification from the STs.

For instance, I haven't bought Technocracy Lore with Arlo. He did, however, have a huge epic fight with a cyborg with a plasma laser that punched through concrete. This fight did 7 agg and several lethal to Arlo, taking him into torpor. It lasted four rounds of sword thrust, laser cannon, parried arm-cannon, timer to explosion, huge explosion, etc. It's a little hard to forget all that. It was blatantly obvious that the cyborg was not creatable with "normal" technology. This was in a building where mortals with super-technology gadgets were keeping supernatural creatures locked in a prison.

The deduction that a mortal agency exists that has access to superscience including cyborgs and giant lasers and puts supernatural creatures in prison is not a hard one.

Now, I intend to eventually purchase the related lore, as it is something that Arlo should have on his sheet, but I've got some higher priorities at the moment.

So the question is: until I buy that dot... does Arlo completely forget that he fought a cyborg despite having the entire thing on tape and the scars from a laser blast through the chest? Does he for some reason believe that superscience doesn't exist, despite the terminator-esque lasercyborg having more dice to attack then he does?

I'm unclear on how I'm supposed to play this. That scene was a major event in Arlo's life and is a major part of his interactions with several characters, in particular the people who went in with him or fought with him. I've tried not talking about it, but it will invariably come up. ST ruling?

[benime]

arlobraven said:

I'm unclear on how I'm supposed to play this. That scene was a major event in Arlo's life and is a major part of his interactions with several characters, in particular the people who went in with him or fought with him. I've tried not talking about it, but it will invariably come up. ST ruling?

Alexei would want you to buy that lore.




;D

[David Price]

Unfortunately, Arlo learns dark secrets in character much faster than it is possible to get exp to buy the lores related to said things. And there are certain abilities or attributes that he really should buy before then.

Arlo has had full detailed explanations of four thaum paths and 20 rituals described to him in character by people who have the paths and rituals (I can list details and the events he learned them in if people really need me to). By the only chart I can find, that's Tremere Lore 4. Which is ridiculous for Arlo to have, as he doesn't know half the things in tremere lore 3. And that's 8 exp right there. It did not take me a month dedicated to learning those things for Arlo to pick them up.

There used to be a guideline of "if you learned it not in a scene, you have to buy the lore. If you learned it in a scene, you only know that specific information and you can't explain it well/convincingly to anybody until you actually buy the lore." Now it's "if you don't have the dots, you don't have the knowledge. If you learned in a scene, you forget it." which is a bit awkward. Arlo shouldn't have Tremere Lore 4 (Actually, looking at it he's covered all the points in Tremere Lore 3 thanks to Victor chatting about mortal mages becoming kindred when in the 13 plotline, but that's also silly). He shouldn't have the lore to know all the antideluvians names (Kindred Lore 4, which admittedly I hope to buy at some point), but thanks to the Insight scene ran with Jerris a while back, he does. He's got all the points in Sabbat Lore 4 (outsider) due to plots he's been in (the koldunic Tzimisce comes to mind, as well as dementation and city gangrel distinctions).

If I bought all the lore that Arlo's learned just by existing and not particularly even investigating these things... I think my count comes to something like 80 exp worth of lore. I don't have that to spend. And some of that the STs won't justify me buying, anyway (like Tremere Lore 4, quite rightly). But does that mean that Arlo forgets that Victor flew in the air and summoned 2000 gallons of gasoline to burn Latham? Or the teleporting abilities of Sayavati after she carefully explained the "I need to see the area." requirements and the distinctions between her magic and normal Thaum?

I should point out that Arlo is roughly my first major vampire character. I've only ever read the main book and the storyteller guides (actually, I read clanbook tremere once). Arlo came in with not only no lores, but the New Arrival flaw (which I have bought off, yes). All the knowledge he's had, he learned in game. By the "I need to buy the dots to justify the knowledged I learned through scene" logic, Arlo would have to buy Kindred, Cam, Malk, Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere, Sabbat, and Assamite Lore 4, most of the Lupine, Ghost, etc up to 2 or 3, and a whole spattering of other random things (You try hanging around the gaslight lounge and still not believing in ghosts). I don't have 100 exp to spare. I don't think I should have to pay 8 exp to not forget that Victor Morton was flying, summoned gasoline, and then threw a fireball to ignite it (knowledge of 3 paths that you yourself do not have is Tremere Lore 4).

[David Price]

I feel I should point out that I should not get those dots for free. Arlo does not intend to ever explain or teach those facts until I purchase those dots, and I do not have the other information that those dots would represent. He doesn't know what Blood Brothers are, for instance. But I feel that Arlo should be able to remember that some Sabbat vampires can form together into one creature, since he's fought one. If I ever attempt to mention it, I'll explain it really badly. "There were these things! People. And they fused together. Okay, that sounds really stupid. But it happened! I swear!" unless I buy the dots. But I think that I should be able to remember it myself, at least.