More DGA: The True Meaning of Status

[Kaine Chandler]

(DGA=damn good advice)
In a continuing effort to improve the quality of game, I want to clarify the Satus system a bit.
It seems that the status system is misunderstood, resulting in a devaluing of the market flooded by cheap status. The confusion seems to be because some think it is a purely mathematical system, like combat. In combat if the number of successes on my dex+dodge is more than your dex+brawl, i dodge, period. its a fixed math system. Status, however, the numbers are merely convenient representations of your standing in the Camarilla, not mathematical absolutes.

We use adjectives to represent the way a kindred is thought of, and the person who awarded the status is also important. Thus, if Billy Brujah has been awarded Brave, Trustworthy, Feared and Loyal by his local primogen, and Tristan Toreador has been awarded Talented and Generous by a prince and an archon, these should be taken into account in comparing thier standing as a whole, not just the numbers. Another example was mentioned that a person having obtained loaned status from 7 other people might bring his total status to 15 and thus "outrank" the prince. This is not so. Status represents how you are thought of in Camarilla society. Loaned status is a representation that the loaner is supporting the loanee, usually for a specific purpose, such as to speak to the prince, or carry out deeds in the loaner's name. Thus the person who "has" 15 status does not "beat" the Prince's 9, for several reasons, the main one being that the Prince is a Camarilla position of absoulute power over his city and its denizens, no one but an archon, justicar etc (possibly another prince) can truly be of higher social standing. Having the backing of many well respected members of the domain means just that, you have thier backing. The 7 loaners of status in this case have declared to the world at large that they back you in this matter. The math says that makes you 15, but status cannot be treated as a soley mathematical system. Now, a wise prince would see that support and realize that he should listen to what you have to say because its an opinion shared by many, but it does NOT mean he must defer to you, nor that you may cease treating him with all the respect a prince deserves. This same scenario applies to a lesser extent to the primogen within thier own clans, and to a greater extent to visiting archons, or god-forbid, justicars.

Lastly, I want to point out that trying to get your status number up, is not necessarily going to help you or your clan. Status is taken very seriously in the Camarilla. Each time a kindred moves to a new city, they must present themselves to the Prince, at this time they also present their status, what it was for and who granted it. That prince then must accept these status' in order for them to hold true in his domain. Thus, if you leave Seattle and the Prince of your next city has heard that the person how granted your status was unworthy to do so, or feels that the deed for which it was earned was too trivial, he will not allow you to keep it. Now, I know that when your characters leave for good, they're retired and you may ask yourselves, "why should we care?" but if this happens too often, there could be consequences enacted upon your domain (and thus your PCs) by the Camarilla (read STs). And closer to home, if the other members of the domain feel you did not earn your new status, or that a primogen is merely favoring his own clan by granting out unearned status, they may appeal to thier primogen and the harpy to remove that status, or even further strip the individual or offending primogen.

So remember, Status is not about the numbers, its about the whos, hows and whys of your standing in the Camarilla. Help us to restore the true meaning of status by role-playing these distinctions rather than just relying on the math, and gain new opportunities to double-cross, back-stab and undermine your social enemies.

[Shakir Movre']

So noted and nicely stated... Game on

[Kenneth Ashland]

Currently, few if any players know to/take the time to outline from whom they were given status, and for what reasons.

It would help if these things were specified, and players made sure to, on occasion, brag about what they've been declared as, and by whom.

Another problem is that, technically, if some lowlife disrespects Primogen so-and-so from another Clan, that person should be punished.

Right now O'Keefe can walk to the upper deck, make smarmy at the Seneschal, and walk away with little (if any) recrimination (just using as an extreme, and recent, example).

That...shouldn't fly. At all. In a Cam city. Maybe the new nudging on Influence use will start some changes.

But the onus is really on the players to take status, IC, seriously. And it falls to the Harpy (me) to nudge people in the right direction. I've tried various things IC over the last few months, made suggestions, and am going to try new things based on ST suggestions, but...well, Status only means something if *everybody* pays attention.

But then, how does anyone know to give respect (or pointedly ignore) a person with status? Even I have a hard time keeping track of whose status is what. Maybe as discussed previously, some kind of "visual cue" is needed.

But, as Kaine says, it shouldn't be purely based on numbers.

Morris Tobias is "only" Status 4. But he's an Elder, has been in Seattle forever, and is generally regarded well by practically everyone across the political spectrum.

Am I (the Harpy) going to give a 5-status newcomer to Seattle preference over Morris? Actually...no. Morris has tenure.

It needs to be a more abstract concept, and non-positioned strangers shouldn't automatically be able to thwack people with status in Seattle. "Ok, you're cool...but do you have a title?"

</ramble>

[benime]

It seems to me that at this game (not just Vampire, mind you), there is a more subtle, truer system of status that underlies the chronicle and taints every decision. At points when the two conflict, we have problems.

[Thornstar]

true.

[Doctor]

Morris Tobias is "only" Status 4. But he's an Elder, has been in Seattle forever, and is generally regarded well by practically everyone across the political spectrum.

Am I (the Harpy) going to give a 5-status newcomer to Seattle preference over Morris? Actually...no. Morris has tenure.

Dr.> See the problem is this -is- how the status system as it normaly exists for larp works. A status to elder unless holding an offical position is allways out striped by a status 4 elder, thats the way its written to work. Do i like it? do i agree with it? Not nescaryly. But if we are going to bri gn prestation and standing in the city and offical position into status We -NEEED- to rewrite the system completely. Wich is not nescarly a bad thing. hell if you think about it the origional Status system accounts for Elder with position as say, 1 normal status and if hes a primogen just +1 bonus status so a kindred from out of the city by this system who has 3 other status but no position should be held in higher status esteem. For this game this is a bad system. So like -so- much of the game why dont we rewrite the status system??

On the Mush i play on wich is basicly like a big ONLine Larp we have a status system where everyone has a status raiting and the launch status attacks or defenses on someones status through the harpy and all the status used in an attack is weighed aginst all the status used in defense wich could then shift the persons status up or down 1 to 2 status levels. Such as Marcus the Toreador Says to the Harpy "I think Jack is a pompus idiot of a brujah" status attack with a status of 4. well of course all the other toreador weigh in with there status say for a cobined 24, while the brujah all rally around Jack with shouts of "Jack is our man!" but can only scrap up a defense of 13 to add to jacks status of 2. This means that by a small ammount the Toreador have made there case and jack goes down a status level. But Wait theres a twist!! The harpy steps in as the social leader of status and says "Realy this is foolish Jack is a stand up guy." And reverses the status attack. thus TInfact Marcus the Toreador looses 1 status. DAH DAH!

But the scale is more realistic the system reflects actualy opinnions within a city if you have an enamy you can make status attacks aginst him thus making it a social war. Primogen and Harpys and princes can still grant status plus get a number of special status actions. And your starting status is calculated difrently.

Neonites +0
Ancilla +1
Elders +2
Low City position +2
High city position +3
Number of years contributing to the domain as determined by the prince +1 per year
Rising star merit +1
harpy +3
Prestegious sire +2
major prestation +1
5 minor prestations +1
so on and so forth...

the system is good and could be adjusted easyly to reflect what is "status" worthy in this game...

just my twenty cents.

[Doctor]

Visual Status suggestion. This is what we used in a former larp that was cool though i agree it shouldnt be a system of math this was helpful.

Colored beads on a string.
1 red bead for an Ancilla.
2 Red beads for a Elder.
gold bead for status granted via city position.
white beads for city wide status
black beads for status recognized cam wide such as granted by a justicar or grand harpy.
and often the various clans wouldd have a colored bead and use these for there own clan status for pecking order and would give a bead to there clan friend to show if that person was considered respected by a large number of that clan.

again just some ideas.

[Joseph Mayek]

I don't mean to sound like an ass... and Maybe I'm just tired, but what the hell did you just say? lol I don't know the point you were trying to make and.. Just what is the problem with the status -system-?
I don't think there is a problem with the -system-, but there's one with the way it's being -viewed-, I think is the point.

If you want to do 'social' attacks. I, personally, am all for -not- having some 'status rating' determining those attacks. I've gotten status removed, and given, through manipulation and such. That's how it -should- be, imnho. Makes for good damn rp, too.

As for the idea of beads, eh. I'm for there not being visual 'cues' as if you don't know someone's 'status' IC, you shouldn't be changing your IC actions because of OOC beads. Just because someone has high status doesn't mean you recognize em right off the bat, or anything like that (that's Fame background) So, treat them how you would treat someone who's status you don't know.

[Deimos]

Yeah, I'm with Drake on this one. Your MUD, MUSH might use a different system for ease in a purely online environment, or the other LARP might use beads because they have a hard on for arts and crafts, but you have to roll Percep+Politics if you want to find out someone's standing in the city, or ask the Harpy. The info isn't free, and it shouldn't be. It should be an uncomfortable prospect for a Neonate to ask the Harpy about the status of others, as it's likely to draw his attention, from which wacky prestation role-play is sure to ensue.

[Kenneth Ashland]

deimos said:

It should be an uncomfortable prospect for a Neonate to ask the Harpy about the status of others, as it's likely to draw his attention, from which wacky prestation role-play is sure to ensue.

Case in point: The week after 'Ace' became Gangrel Primogen, she comes up to Kenneth and asks:

"I need to know what Scion's status is."

"You...don't know the standing of, from all I hear, a famous Elder of your own Clan?"

"Uhm...well-"

"Trivial Boon."

"*sigh* Ok..."

[benime]

"What's Scion's status?"

"Last I checked, staked and confused."

"Damn you, sir. Damn you."

[David Price]

To be fair, _nobody_ knew Scion's status even when he was famous until the trial.

Which had the amusing affect of having the two status granted to him stacking on his previous status. And entertained me to no end.

[Chilli]

benime said:

"What's Scion's status?"

"Last I checked, staked and confused."

"Damn you, sir. Damn you."

ROTFLMAO

Couldn't have said it better!

[Dr]

You know what, if you dont want feed back and suggestions on how to do a Visual system then you shouldnt ask for feedback. And when options are asked for dont attack people who actuly offer suggestions. When those suggestions weer -asked- for especialy when the poster points out they are simply -other ways- things have been done. Not there personal preferance. When it was in response to the very people saying they didnt like the existing system.

By the existing system A Position holder with long standing in the city say a PRimogen with 3 status and all of that given by the Prince. is -less- importiant then a new commer to the city whos 4 status was given by primogens in another city and who holds no position. thats how the current system works. you guys said you didnt like that it shouldnt be just math. So some suggestions weer made on other examples of ways to do system. because the current system is all about the math. if you have a city position it only adds +blah number of status. thats it. and the current system -does NOT- take into account -who gave status. PERIOD. so dont ask for ideas on how to do things otherwise when you bitch about not wanting things to be the way they are currently and then jump on the guy who actuly offers some ideas.

DR.

[Joseph Mayek]

Interesting that you viewed something as an attack. I don't see any attacks here. And if you were referring to my post, I did point out that I didn't want to sound like an ass, but was simply being blunt and to the point. Didn't realized it'd be construed as not only being an ass, but being an -attack-. Just expressed my view of the suggestion, and poking holes in an idea -isn't- an attack, it's criticism.

Suggestions are fine, indeed, they're a -good- thing. I make some, just like everyone, and have been shot down before, and sometimes not. *shrugs* It doesn't mean I think I'm being attacked, or that someone is 'jumping on me'. I just stand and argue my case if I believe in it.

As for the system. I see no reason to re-write the system at this time. The math aspect of it is all I'm seeing suggested redone, here. As it stands, it leaves alot of it to roleplay, which is good, and helps people grow as roleplayers.

Yes, I do agree with Ross with the Morris Tobias example, and that's something that's taken into account with him. And something I take in account as well. A Primogen is going to get my attention before someone without, regardless of 'status', usually.

Elders, long standing individuals, positions, usually -will- get attention first. It's the Old boy system, to an extent, with Status being a guide to further treatment. You've got the New boys, the Regulars, the Elders, and the Court Positions. The Status system acts as a way to define each of those people within a given 'group'. You can almost count on this from anyone who 'pays attention' to status.

I suppose I just don't see the need to define this social hierarchy inch by inch.

-D

[Kenneth Ashland]

The social hierarchy in this, and most, LARPs, eventually defines itself, despite what dots you may come in with at chargen or even gain over time.

As Drake mentioned, just as in real life, those who are *really* known are going to be in a better position than any new arrival with status, unless the newbie comes in with an established connection with one or more characters.

For example, as I understand it, Brian Punyon's "Carter" came in with a connection to O'Keefe written into his character background. Insta-clique right there...or insta-aversion, depending on your opinion of O'Keefe.

That's organic, and more true to reality than having a set of beads on. If you don't recognize Dick Cheney as you're walking down the street, it's not because his coat was covering up some "I AM THE VEEP" badge, it's because you failed your Perception + Politcs roll.

Beads or symbols aren't a "bad" idea...I think the Giovanni ring system is really neat for their Clan Status...but I think it should be the players responsibility to keep their character informed through appropriate rolls or their own instincts on who-is-what in the status game, just as it is in the influence game.

[Kevin K]

I agree with all that's been said about the Int_politics rolls and whatnot, and the ability for some characters to be ignorant of status. My concern is that for those who would not be ignorant of status, the population of the city and the realities of playing only four hours a week at most, means that fewer people are able to keep status into account than is optimal for the setting.

This isn't any kind of a decision, or rules change, or anything of that sort. Just my own concerns with how our system is doing.

-Kevin

[Kaine Chandler]

Dr. I must say that while your original post was somewhat syntacticly obtuse, advice is always welcome. However, it not only needs to be presented in a format that can be understood by those you are speaking to, it needs to be relevant to the situation. I think had you taken more care in the phrasing and spelling of your post, mayek would not have been confused as to your point. But moreover, my original post was to introduce the idea that the system is not just about the numbers, yet you continue to insist that it is. A system of status combat, for lack of a better phrase, would be even more about the numbers. Regardless, my point was to help people realize that they CAN take these other factors (age, time in the city, what the status was earned for, etc) into account when dealing with one another. The problem with trying to invent a hard and fast system for status is that it is an IC system within the Camarilla, not an OOC system like combat or discipline use. The Camarilla itself only has vague guidelines for the status system, and that is reflected in EC, in the RP that ensues from the classic Kindred attitude of, "how much can I get away with?".

[Isabella Antimony Crane]

You know, the system is already rather organic.

Now, before someone goes hanging me by my toes here, I think the problem isn't that everyone needs to know... it's the initial means of crossing IC and OOC.

When a certain Kindred enters a City, they bring Status with them. When they are presented, the Harpy takes that information down. Those who are present in the room when this occurs KNOW what that status is. Those who keep their ears to the ground IC KNOW what the status is.

That being said, when a character comes into the city, they DON'T know the status of everyone involved. Their clan... maybe. If the person is of note. Otherwise, that's part of the problem being new blood in the city.

You are ally-less, information-less, and unless you make friends fast and know the right questions to ask IC, you won't figure it out till you step on the wrong elder's toes (Maylin and Rourke for an example.) and it's up to you to compensate IC for your IC ignorance.
Again, this reinforces the Harpy's strength and how much the city knows and reinforces the "old boys' club" mentality of Status.

It's one of the frustrations of being a neonate or new to the city.

If you want to know these things, make your tests. Yes, it's a pain when you first enter a city, to make a test every time you meet someone new, but it nicely encapsules the dizzying difficulty of placing faces and names with known status which you've heard third party. It's not easy. It's not supposed to be.

Should you find this information out, you can at the same time try to figure out who gave that status to Billy Brujah.

"You know, the Primogen gave Billy the Status of Reasonable."
"Yeah, but said Prime can't get through the night without a Happy Meal."
"You've got a point...."

Thus plays in the Camarilla habit of gossip, and flavors the RP with the chance for misinformation.

Now, some Status is universally known, right? Wrong. Even when "everyone" knows, some genius is going to be on the outside. There is always the guy who botched his Status check.

Anyway, it's 3am and time for me to pass out, so I'll stop McLogic-atin'.
See? McLogic-atin'. I need to sleep.

[Layla]

beauty in words, I'm so confused.