Assamite Sorcery/Dur-An-Ki for review - First wave

[Ascanio Giovanni]

This thread is no longer accurate or applicable to gameplay. See the updated thread for Assamite Sorcery/Dur-An-Ki clarifications here.


vampst.proboards.com/thread/15410/new-assamite-sorcery-dur-rituals

[Katie Hester]

While I think that the majority of the changes to Ghost body are fine and do a great job of balancing the strength of ghost body, I do not think that those under the influence of ghost body should be able to be targeted while ghost bodied. This goes directly against what is in the book.

I believe that because of the fact that the user cannot activate any discipline, interact with any object and with the changes, can be detected by those in the mortal realm, seen in the spirit realm and cannot use ghost body immediately after moving between the realms, being targeted by something like spirit manipulation (specifically) is crippling. The user can be commanded to do something else or imprisoned to an object, a level 3 and 4 tham ability, respectively. I feel like, because the user can not interact with anything in the spirit realm, there is no way things in the spirit realm can interact with the user.

If anything, the user should just be forced to a mental test of some sort to see if they have a negative reaction to being in the spirit realm. Let's say, they have seen some horrid spirit in the other realm and failed a courage test, the next time they want to use ghost body, they can't bring them selves to do so without passing willpower test or spending a willpower. Something along those lines would help achieve the (I assume) goal of making ghost body risking while still being within the bounds of how the book details as the way ghost body works.

[David Price]

... what kind of Fetish can you make with an Assamite vampire?

/hypothetical, oh god, please stay hypothetical...

[Skir]

The power does not mention anything at all one way or the other about not being able to interact with the Spirit Realm. It says the user cannot interact or be interacted with by physical objects and mentions that the user is, despite the name, not in the lands of the dead, and that they see very strange things occasionally. The only real explanation is that they are in the penumbra, the same place as other astral travelers, except that they go there bodily. As they are there bodily, they are subject to the burdens, however uncommon, of such a place.

[Just Evan]

Some thoughts:

On the change to Abeyance Effects: I disagree with these points:

The abeyance effect is in the Pebble’s holder, not the Pebble itself, though it is triggered by the use of the Pebble.

Page 125 of Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy specifically states "She [the holder of the Pebble] is not performing sorcery; the magic rests in the stone, which always works if the vizier's [sic] player made the activating roll."

This was published in the same book as Hunter's Winds (which is on page 123). The line above deals directly with communication and use of beneficial powers through the stone and seems pretty straightforward to me. I'm honestly not sure what difference it would make in game play to have the effect stored on the stone and not the user, but since the book calls this out specifically; my thought is that we should go with it and not add unnecessary changes in specific situations.

All previously cast abeyance effects not yet triggered at the sunrise following their casting fade from the holder.

Is there a reason for this nerf? Also, if a point has been made to institute this change, is there a reason the power does not fade at the next Inauspicious night instead?

On Wiff of Khalif (level 4): Thank you for making this power useable in Mod-Dot.

Can you please go over the rationale for the changes to Ghost Body? The book (pg 123 of Blood Secrets) explicitly states the power does not place you in the realm of the dead (lower Umbra) and that you cannot interact with the dead. Why can powers that interact with the dead effect you? Point of fact, the power as written does not move you from the physical plane at all. It makes you intangible and invisible for the duration but makes it impossible for you to use any disciplines. A rationale for limiting how often it can be used would also be appreciated.

Thank you!

Evan

Edit: Sean responded the same time I did, lulz!

Jul 19, 2013 11:50:43 GMT -8 Skir said:

The power does not mention anything at all one way or the other about not being able to interact with the Spirit Realm. It says the user cannot interact or be interacted with by physical objects and mentions that the user is, despite the name, not in the lands of the dead, and that they see very strange things occasionally. The only real explanation is that they are in the penumbra, the same place as other astral travelers, except that they go there bodily. As they are there bodily, they are subject to the burdens, however uncommon, of such a place.

I always took the 'strange things seen' as a note that there are stranger things in heaven and earth, not that this power moved you to the Umbra. I feel like that is a shaky stance to base the call that this power is now dimensional travel as opposed to the intangibility outlined in the actual text. Can we discuss the system/balance rational for the change and maybe brainstorm a different way to get to the same end goal?

[Katie Hester]

Jul 19, 2013 11:50:43 GMT -8 Skir said:

The power does not mention anything at all one way or the other about not being able to interact with the Spirit Realm. It says the user cannot interact or be interacted with by physical objects and mentions that the user is, despite the name, not in the lands of the dead, and that they see very strange things occasionally. The only real explanation is that they are in the penumbra, the same place as other astral travelers, except that they go there bodily. As they are there bodily, they are subject to the burdens, however uncommon, of such a place.

The system text of ghost body specifically states, "Despite the name, this power does not actually place the character within the realms of the dead, and does not allow interaction with the ghosts from the Underworld. Some Assamites have reported seeing very strange things while in this form, however, and most are very cautious about attaining the Ghost Body."

To me, this says that if it were the umbra the user were traveling through, they can see and therefore be seen, but can not interact or be target-able by anything within this plane. Adding the nightmare/fear component that I suggested would integrate in the fact that the user will see strange things. Things they would not otherwise want or be comfortable with seeing.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

The point of having the magic be stored in the beneficiary and not the subject is to deal with the fact that the beneficiary can have abeyance effects equal to his permanent willpower. If the magic was in the stone this would make no sense. Mechanically the only difference is that if a sorcerer casts an effect for a beneficiary and that beneficiary gives his pebble to a different assamite, that second assamite would not be able to use the abeyance effects cast for the intended beneficiary.

[Just Evan]

Jul 19, 2013 15:31:59 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

The point of having the magic be stored in the beneficiary and not the subject is to deal with the fact that the beneficiary can have abeyance effects equal to his permanent willpower. If the magic was in the stone this would make no sense. Mechanically the only difference is that if a sorcerer casts an effect for a beneficiary and that beneficiary gives his pebble to a different assamite, that second assamite would not be able to use the abeyance effects cast for the intended beneficiary.

Er... Pebbles are unique to each Caster/Subject combo. If I made a pebble for Fausto, Keila could not use it as it takes Fausto's blood to create the pebble in the first place.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

It is true that a pebble must be enchanted for a specific person. I've seen before however a Sorcerer enchant the same pebble for multiple people.

However it's mostly a flavour thing and really a moot point as far as system goes. Other than the transfer of a pebble, the only thing I can think of it affecting is that when viewed with Thaum sight, the abeyance effects would appear to be on the subject.

[Just Evan]

That pebble transfer idea makes me sad. I'd also be excited to see a clarification that each pebble can be enchanted to a single caster/subject pair as a strict reading of the system explanation of the ritual.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

I believe that fits the flavour better as well and is the direction the clarifications on that are going. I was just trying to cover all the bases due to something I'd previously seen in this clarification as well.