Daily Stab Discussion

[Jeff]

Hey, wondering where the Harpy Board went?

As a current candidate for Harpy, I was reviewing posts on that board and now its gone?

Just checking

Jeff

[Oberon Gault]

I weep for the lack of harpy post availability.

[Jeff]

I would actually like to petition that the idea of "Elysium Chatter" that is the Harpy Post should be available to all, not just Cam members. We don't prevent other groups from coming into Elysium, so I'd say it should be open to all.

[Oberon Gault]

Sept 18, 2013 10:04:44 GMT -8 Jeff said:

I would actually like to petition that the idea of "Elysium Chatter" that is the Harpy Post should be available to all, not just Cam members. We don't prevent other groups from coming into Elysium, so I'd say it should be open to all.

Please. This.

[Shah-Khohr of Ventrue]

+1

[Ross]

Agree.

-Ross

[Galen]

Yeah, it's being fixed at the moment, it got shuffled during the whole clan sub-sect page additions. The Webmonkey is on it.

[Webmonkey]

Anarchs and Independents that find value in that kind of information now have a reason to do things like send people to Elysium to find out what's going on, pay info brokers and Nosferatu to keep them in the loop and spy on court holders.

That said, currently it's a lot of independent players calling for this on this post currently, so I suggest a poll.

Should Anarchs and Independents need to cultivate contacts in the Cam and ask about Camarilla intersect scandal-wars and boon trading or should they get it for 'free'?

It takes time and resources for the Anarchs and/or Giovanni and/or Gangrel to position someone in the Elysium to catch status announcements and Scandals. They are publically announced in Elysium, sure, but if a Toreador falls in standing and nobody from another Sect is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Sure does. And that info is worth something.

[Webmonkey]

(FYI, moving the Daily Stab back into the 'public' while this is discussed.)

[Jenn]

Sept 18, 2013 17:27:03 GMT -8 Webmonkey said:

(FYI, moving the Daily Stab back into the 'public' while this is discussed.)

Thank you.

[BLewis]

Sept 18, 2013 17:25:43 GMT -8 Webmonkey said:

Should Anarchs and Independents need to cultivate contacts in the Cam and ask about Camarilla intersect scandal-wars and boon trading or should they get it for 'free'?

I'd argue that most already have said contacts. And no one likes being bothered with "Hey, what's your harpy said lately" when their reply is "I tell X what Y said" followed by "You can go check the boards." What also doesn't fall in line with that is those with actual contact dots on their sheet of Camarilla/Anarch/Sabbat/Independent contacts. It seems bad precedent to establish that players should just start spamming STs with "What's so-and-so City's say about scandal?" whenever they want to start churning their contact dots.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

The Camarilla isn't keeping any of this stuff secret. They really want the world to know what the harpies think. Particularly remember that according to the Convention of Thorns, everyone who isn't a member of the Sabbat is considered a member of the Camarilla. They spread their information to everyone who will listen. It makes no sense that Anarchs and Independents wouldn't hear harpy reports.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

Sept 18, 2013 19:01:16 GMT -8 BLewis said:

Sept 18, 2013 17:25:43 GMT -8 Webmonkey said:

Should Anarchs and Independents need to cultivate contacts in the Cam and ask about Camarilla intersect scandal-wars and boon trading or should they get it for 'free'?

I'd argue that most already have said contacts.

Based on what? Some Cam don't even pay attention to status, boons and scandal very much unless it directly involves them, so if word of mouth is the only way they pass it on, I say all the better. The 'telephone' game should be alive and well with the info being a bit more elusive. I don't generally like statements from a minority speaking for the majority without numbers, hence the poll suggestion.

"And no one likes being bothered with "Hey, what's your harpy said lately" when their reply is "I tell X what Y said" followed by "You can go check the boards.""

I suspect that there are social players that would love such a discussion IC, particularly if the info was worth a trivial favor down the line from the asker, even if it's not a registered boon. It would also be interesting to see who takes an active interest in Cam affairs that isn't one. I suspect, but don't know, hence the poll.

What also doesn't fall in line with that is those with actual contact dots on their sheet of Camarilla/Anarch/Sabbat/Independent contacts.

We don't check social stats to see if X character is being smooth most of the time either. It's a LARP, not everything that drives a little role play needs a test.

It seems bad precedent to establish that players should just start spamming STs with "What's so-and-so City's say about scandal?" whenever they want to start churning their contact dots.

There's a reason that bonus contacts go to the don of the Giovanni for example just like they do for primogen and court members, and the harpy and that's so those pcs can get that kind of info on their own. But it does mean leveraging them more to get it regularly, which increases resource scarcity.

[Ross]

Well, it's also kinda fun on a community level to be able to read the game's version of the "National Inquirer" from time to time.

Like Post Mortem, I look at Harpy Posts as an IC/OOC opportunity for people to see how events at game are going, how things have been interpreted over the course of story, and from time to time even get to see their own character mentioned in the "news."

It's not XP for RP, but it's a boost to know if something your character has done (good or bad) has gotten some recognition.

-Ross

[Jeff]

What I do think is that the Harpy reports need to be split in two.
The stuff that is publicly available, that goes out to everyone, will be the Daily Stab. This will include things like Boon and status changes, announcements from the upper court, things clearly done in a large public setting.
The other part, call it local gossip ( or Elysium Chatter ) would be things that aren't expected to go outside the local cam by default, so those might be appropriate to be in the locked down section. This might include things like whispers of affairs, something that might look like a scandal if so-and-so doesn't get there act together, things like that.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

The storytellers have stated they intend to have a poll on the subject.

[Webmonkey]

Sept 18, 2013 18:04:25 GMT -8 Jenn said:

Sept 18, 2013 17:27:03 GMT -8 Webmonkey said:

(FYI, moving the Daily Stab back into the 'public' while this is discussed.)

Thank you.

Oops! I realized while I moved the board back to it's previous location I had forgotten to remove the permissions restrictions. Sorry! It's back available to everyone pending the poll results.

[Webmonkey]

Sept 19, 2013 0:12:37 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

The Camarilla isn't keeping any of this stuff secret. They really want the world to know what the harpies think. Particularly remember that according to the Convention of Thorns, everyone who isn't a member of the Sabbat is considered a member of the Camarilla. They spread their information to everyone who will listen. It makes no sense that Anarchs and Independents wouldn't hear harpy reports.

There's absolutely nothing in canon, including the Convention of Thorns that states 'They really want the world to know what the harpies think'. (The Convention of Thorns 'document' is in fact a Camarilla club document from the gaming organization that I thought was neat back in the day and added to the website for grins, but as it specifically calls out the Anarchs via the Justicars decision, not the harpies, naturally the Anarchs would be made aware, but via Archons, not harpies.) The Camarilla Convention that happens every 13 years is a world-shaping event, and you can bet that the other Sects have a very vested interest in learning what the Council decides on this or that. But that's a huge, somewhat rare event. It has very little to do with how Billy Brujah got 'Retard Strong' for punching a Tzimisce last week.

It makes perfect sense that Anarchs and Independents would not hear harpy reports unless they choose to care and if they do, they either show up in a Cam Elysium when the Harpy is going to say something and report back to whatever Baron, or they pay someone (Like the Nos) to keep them up to date on what's going on.

Harpy reports are not a newspaper sold on every street corner, they're internecine scandal sheets (minus the physical sheet) that are not hidden per se, but nobody CC's them to some All Independent inbox either.

Case in point - if a Harpy wants info on the backstory and history of a new PC's status from Chicago, then they generally are expected to provide tit for tat some information in return to some PC in Seattle. Harpies that don't feel they're getting the same quality of info from their contact may withhold information or simply start charging boons to the Seattle Harpy for it. Why then should an Anarch get that info for free when the Harpy announces their results to the Court without at least taking the time to show up to Elysium in Cam territory once and awhile?

Another Example - The Letter of Introduction. It's like a 'receipt' of good standing from a previous domain that says, hey, this guy is Cam and he's known for X status, or at least he's stand up enough to have done a favor for some Prince, Sheriff, Seneshal or Primogen to take time out of their busy night to put their name on the line that he'll not immediately start drooling blood in the middle of the Seahawks game the night he arrives. Why should Gino Giovanni get to know what Domain he hailed from without a few words to the Lick's Primogen? It may only be 'Hey, what's the deal with the new guy?' that is quickly answered, or it could mean that the Primogen demands a little quid pro quo. After all, the Primogen doesn't necessarily know what new Giovanni big-wig just rolled into town. She may not even bother to Introduce herself if she's just travelling through Fall City, yet that information is useful. AND it means that rude or contrary Independents have real reasons for keeping at least one close ally in the Cam with her ear to the ground about harpy matters.

There's a key point I'm trying to make here: Given free access to The Daily Stab, Anarchs and Independents with unfettered access to Camarilla scandals, boons and Prestation information have an OOC advantage that the Camarilla Players do not share. Most Cammies don't get to know what's going on behind closed doors in Clan Gangrel, Setite, Giovanni, the Anarchs, or any other unaligned Clan unless the Characters in the Cam make a concerted effort to ingratiate themselves with those groups. That should go both ways, or not at all.

Put a different way, Independents who get to 'see over the harpy's shoulder' are able to effectively meta-game.

Ross stated, (and I agree) that Post Mortem is a bit like that too, but the difference is that the Daily Stab is exclusively in-character.

If the Giovanni, Gangrel, Setites and Anarchs start posting their Clan Prestige details as public digests (as each is essentially it's own Sect) then there is parity with the Daily Stab, but they don't, so there isn't, and I'm not ok with that. I don't think you should be either. It may be fun, but it isn't actually fair or balanced in any way when you consider that.

Barring 'it's always been that way before' I don't actually see any good reason in canon or otherwise why that lack of balance should continue.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

First of all, you are absolutely correct that it is not canon for it to be this way. But since you brought that up, let's remember that by canon, they Harpy isn't even an official position. By canon, the Harpy is the semi-insulting nickname given to whoever happens to be loudest in the city at the moment. It is certainly not a respected position and hardly ever really listened to outside the city in question.

So lets both stop pretending to argue canon foundation for a position that was essentially made up by this game and the Cam club. The actual canon in this case is what we want it to be.

That said, I'm going on other supporting evidence from canon that the Cam in particular is rather open with its information. Social scandals and backbiting don't work very well if only a select few hear about them. They are also rather fond of grand proclamations. With this in mind it seems strikingly out of character for the cam to keep these announcements private.

Second, how exactly is the harpy report spread? This has never been defined, which is one of the reasons I think we are having this debate. When my old character Aidan Brennan founded the Anarch Soapbox, I very clearly established what it was and who had access (namely anyone who wanted to get a free authenticator from the Soapbox) as well as the medium of delivery. And now that a debate on this emerges, there is no question on who has access because it was defined.

But the Daily Stab has always been left vague. Is it a representation of word of mouth? Are these actual written reports? If so how and where are they distributed? It is very hard to have this debate without knowing these facts. I'd very much like to see this defined. Given the nature of this game and the role the harpy has taken therein, it seems like them being actual written reports makes the most sense since that is what is happening IC and OOC. So what is left is to decide the medium of delivery. Clearly due to precedent, these reports are distributed beyond the borders of Seattle. The very existence of greater and a grand harpy says that pretty plainly.

On the subject of independent clans not sharing their information, what cam clan shares theirs either? No clan shares their info so why does that even come into the discussion. If its a question of fairness, I can only say that the world of darkness is not a fair and equal place. And the Anarchs at least DO share their info. In fact the real trick is usually getting them to shut up.

The other important thing to remember is that Seattle is an extreme oddity by canon in having a separate city for its independents and Anarchs. The vast majority of the time, Anarchs and independents, and in a lot of cases Sabbat (not openly of course) all live in the same city and all hear the same news. Does being independent mystically plug your ears when the Harpy starts talking?

One final point before I close my rambling mouth and let someone else talk. Although this game is absolutely not and should never be fair IC, it should strive to be fair OOC. That means the same rules applying across the board. If an independent isn't getting the news because he doesn't have cam contacts, why does the cam who also doesn't have any cam contacts get it for free anyway? It needs to be the same. If we want to say that it all has to be done through contacts and what you can hear, that's fine (actually far more canon appropriate) but if we do that the same rules need to apply to everyone. However that is not how this game has been running the "position" of harpy in the 7 years I have been here. Such a major change, however canon appropriate should be very carefully considered for its implications and effect on our game world.

Ok. I'll shut up now and let some other people talk for a bit. Sorry for the rambling. That one kind of got away from me.

[Hephaestus]

I don't have a particularly eloquent or impassioned speech about it like the last 2 posts, but I do think that having the harpy posts and anarch soapboxes publically talking about what's going on in game makes me feel more engaged and excited about game, which I think is already hard enough to break into and feel involved in. Between the posts and Noms at the end of the night I feel like I get a big picture view of what's going on, and that makes me feel more involved and attached to game, which I think is great for new players and old.