What status should the Harpy be leant?

[Jeff]

An OOC discussion / question from last night.

www.emeraldcitychronicles.com/213317/52033.html

There are contradictory sentences in the Status page... first sentence:

"A character may loan status to another kindred for many reasons; it is proper, for example, to loan status to a deputy or assistant position to show that they are operating with the weight of the official's words. Another primary example of loaned status is in the choosing of a Harpy--it is proper for the Primogen to consider the Harpy of the Domain "Revered" and loan him this positional status that they gain for being Primogen."

That is under Loaned status.  And seems to indicate that a Harpy should be granted the Revered status.

But, later, under the Harpy information

" A Harpy's Loaned and Positional Status

Upon being appointed by the Primogen Council, (at the strong urging of the Prince) a Harpy gains the Positional Status Influential and is shown support with a Loaned Personal Status Trait from each of the Primogen. The Primogen, in turn, list this Trait as loaned so long as they support the Harpy. Though these Traits are Loaned Status, they may not be used by the Harpy when comparing Status Traits in a regular (personal) debate. The Harpy can call upon the Traits when performing Harpy business (i.e. stripping status, mediating a boon dispute, investigating a scandal, etc.).  "

A Personal trait being loaned would indicate not the Positional trait of being Primogen.

So, in my time in game, it appears to always have been done the second way, rather than the first.
Discussions?

[Ross]

It was always my understanding that each Primogen simply had to loan "a" status trait of theirs to the Harpy, to represent their endorsement of them, as well as taking the risk of losing said status if the Harpy went and royally fucked-up thereafter.

"Revered" is essentially a 'free' Status trait. I think it makes more sense, and thus increases the risk, if you have to loan one of your personal, non-positional Status traits when backing the Harpy.

Alternately, if it inherently meant that by loaning 'Revered' and then losing it in a Harpy scandal thus removed you from the position of Primogen...if that was made a rule, I'd back it. You'd be effectively saying "I back this guy so hard I'll bet my job on it!"

Of course, then you'd have to figure out how to close the loophole of said defrocked-Primogen not simply being re-voted back into office by his Clanmates. But that's probably manageable.

$0.02

-Ross

[David Price]

The Primogen risk a personal trait by supporting the Harpy - if the Harpy is determined to be a traitor in some manner, the primogen do lose a personal trait for supporting them. As you can't risk primogenship from social standing, it would be improper to loan that status.

That said, the primogen to harpy "loan" is a hazy sort of loan- it has not generally been expected to decrement the primogen's status for purposes of comparison to other people. It is generally only considered "loaned" for the purposes of "the harpy has this much status when doing Harpy business".

[Ascanio Giovanni]

This whole system comes from MET. In the MET system the Primogen always loan Revered. It is a noted insult not to. Not saying we have to keep that, just that that is the origin and should be kept in mind with the system.

[Webmonkey]

The Status system may have come from met, but it's an in-character system. Therefore I suggest having this debate IC and settling with the IC results. Seems like that would be more interesting. .02

[Jeff]

Yeah, but it seems like this should be something that is part of the rules, and the two paragraphs are clearly contradictory, so the rules are incorrect.

[Ross]

In practice, as long as I can remember in ECC, it has been "a" Status trait; never mandated to be Revered. If the House Rules need to be revised to conform to adopted custom, it should go that direction imo.

-Ross

[Ophelia Tempest]

I've always understood it as if you offered up "Revered" you were no longer Primogen - as you no longer held that status.

Hm..

[Webmonkey]

As far as I remember it, my recollection jives with Jeff's, (and I was the ST that initially converted status rules from Met to this game - but hell if I can remember all the details that far back) but as far as my web monkey capacity goes, whatever staff wants to put up there as far as changes (and I'm guessing that'll come down to specific player feedback) is what I'll go with.

[Brendan]

chris: I don't really think it's just an IC system in the city; The Camarilla also feel a certain way about it. On that note, I'll bring this up at the meeting tonight and figure it out.

[Webmonkey]

Lol... I didn't say anything about 'just the city'. (That's a potential Mad Tom perspective, but not mine, heh) the Cam is in character, and out of character, it's whatever, wherever and whyever you guys decide it should be, but the import of the status system is home brew, so it doesn't necessarily matter which way you go with it. V20 uses 'titles' according to the V20 Companion, and I like the stuff we use more anyhow.