Discussion: Community and Game.

[Brendan]

I would like to preface my thoughts with a warning and a reminder: As far as the charter goes, I consider these forums to be "at game". Please be civil when expressing your thoughts. When in doubt, remove foul language. There are better, classier ways to express emphasis.

Now then.

There are a lot of people with a lot of hurt feelings right now over the last couple of weeks. Alongside the events that led to those hurt feelings, there has been a lot (and I mean *a lot*) of discussion on boards, at game, in private, over email, and arguments at people's houses over a great deal of topics. There is one question that comes up in almost every conversation that I've been made privy to.

That question is:

Is this a game, or is this a community?

I've heard two extreme views on this issue. On one hand, I've heard many people call it a Community.

These people, on their extreme, believe that Emerald City Chronicles exists as a social meeting ground that centers around an activity. In those extreme beliefs, the game at the center of the community should never come before the feelings of those in the community. Actions like bloody praxis seizures or tracking down your enemy and murdering him when he was retired are just disruptive, and shouldn't happen like that.

This view, in my opinion, is damaging to both the idea of this game and its community. In canon, this game is about political backstabbing, diablerie, murder, old blood rivalries, violence between two nigh religious sects, and killing people. It is called the World of Darkness.

Now on the other hand, I've heard many people decry these views, saying ECC is a game.

I have heard many people saying that the reactions of those who lost their characters were too extreme, and that game just isn't worth getting emotional about. These people acknowledge the points I made above about the World of Darkness, and tend to lose sight of how their actions may be construed in the Out of Character. Ruthless tactics in character are always okay because, well, "That's what my character would do!"

This opinion is also damaging to this game, and the community that surrounds it. It is not uncommon for people to get upset or angry when a foolproof plan goes to shit, and they lose the two years they've been playing their characters for.

Both, above, were extreme views, and generalizations about the two groups.

So then, what is the answer?

This is my personal opinion, but the answer is that Emerald City Chronicles is neither a community, nor a game. It is both.

This community of gamers, who have come together to play the game Vampire The Masquerade is made of human players who have emotions, concerns, drives, and goals. They have real emotions when those drives and goals fail, and their emotions are valid. Now, sometimes people take the reactions to these emotions a bit far, and act inappropriately, and that is not okay, but just because someone feels shitty because their character died does not mean they're taking this game too seriously.

Now on the other hand, it's not fair to point at a bloody praxis seizure and scream about how disruptive the players are being, and how this doesn't fit canon, and call cheating five ways to sunday because someone killed another character. Like I said above, This is a game of horror, murder, betrayal, politicking and murder. Yes, I said murder twice. Did you know the only canon method of seizing praxis is through bloodshed, or the ex-prince fleeing the domain?

So are people taking things a little too seriously? YES.
Are people being insensitive about others, and should take a step back and consider everyone involved? YES.

I want to hear your feedback, and what you all think about this subject.

[Thornstar]

Brendan,

From the tone of this commentary, it sounds like this is something still being taken too personally. Perhaps the board is not the venue for this discussion, as text placed here is impersonal and difficult to read the inflection of.

I'm not reading this inquest as, perhaps, as legitimately open as it appears; all the topics held within appear to be approached from a defensive posture, as opposed to one implying the readiness to appeal to honest discourse about the subjects.

It is my opinion that there are forests and trees, and one is not being seen for the other, here. Perhaps I'm missing something important, having been out of the loop for a while, but in an appeal for honest communication, I don't think a warning is the way to begin.

If the only topic that is being covered here is: "Is this a game or a community," then I don't feel that the additional specifics beyond that are necessary to go into, as answering and clarifying each other detail could go into voluminous length, without coming to any consensus. If those warhorses are being dragged out to further polarize opinions, I think that is an indelicate way to treat a simple question. It seems that your summary of the situation indicates to the reader that you have 'had it' with people bringing up this subject, or at least that you feel unquestioningly that opinions currently formed are invalid based on closeness to the issues, and the perception of mean-ness. If I'm reading that wrong, my apologies, but this is the statement you've made, here.

Discounting any supposition on what the true meaning of this post is, the question stands: "Is this a game or a community?"

You've defined the forums to be "at Game." As HST, that statement is important. It indicates that your feeling is that this discussion is to be moderated in a different way than presented by the simplified questions later. You've defined your opinion as "ECC is both."

I think that continuing this discussion from the anonymity of the Internet is a terrible idea.
I think that the game is the game and the community is the community.
I don't believe that there should be such a heavy-handed involvement in interpersonal interactions by the staff, whose primary purpose is to administer the game and do so from a position of neutrality and fairness.
I don't think the focus on fixing the community is the job of the Staff. I don't think it's fair to rely on them for it.
I certainly don't think it's fair for them to make such decisions and yet expect to give the perception that they are maintaining a neutral position.

In the last few years, there has been a growing number of (As well as an apparent decreased appreciation of) our PAs. This kind of situation is precisely what they are put in place for. I think they've kind of hit a wall, though. It is my opinion that they should be allowed a far more active role in our Gaming/Community/Whatever/Thing than they have been of late. I think that it is incumbent on us to each and all take them and their opinions seriously and as a thing which is to be of great concern to us.

Someone has to rally the "Faith" in the Game. Someone has to rally the "Faith" in the community.

It does not need to be a single group of people. My advice would be to empower the Player Advocates to handle more of the "Community" problems and stick with the administration of the IC game environment. Gelling the two together seems to be too many moving parts for some people to handle. So spread the wealth.

You have volunteered to fulfill a role. Do so.

The PAs have volunteered to fulfill a role. Let them.

Going about things this way will allow for the separation of opinions about events that you appear to long for. Give it a thought, please. It just might help you out.

--Aaron

[Dimitri Vasilescu]

Aaron,
As I'm pretty sure what Brendan is trying to do is start a discourse in attempts to unify the players by commenting to both "sides" about previous actions. I personally applaud the effort and stand behind the cause even if, like you, I question this method.
However, I get the impression that you desire this and other separations, and I find that unfortunate. I do find the community and the game separate, but frankly find that one would die without the other. Even with that, the community is far more important.
The reason is that the game is just a set of rules to tell several stories, but the fun, the creativity, and the players come from the community.
Simply put, I look forward to your return not because of what character with what powers or position, but because I miss you here as a player and a member of the community.

[Thornstar]

My assertion is not that one lives without the other, just that the problems of one should be handled by different folk than are handling the other. It allows both groups to function independently of the concerns of the other.

One makes sure that the rules and setting and plot are adjudicated fairly, and the other steps up when the conflicts happen between:
players and players
or players and staff members

As opposed to between:
characters and characters
or characters and the world of NPCs and sunlight and fire and hunters and gravity and tax evasion.

That separation of oversight, like the separation of church and state kind of thing, is the only one I think needs to be re-instituted. Hell, the Staff members themselves should have other people to go to when they're having issues with one another or with players, too.

It's one thing for a staff member to have to "Keep the Suit On" and make informed, rational decisions among the staff. That doesn't mean they have to stop being people. They deserve someone looking out for them, too.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Victor Vaughn]

I think that Aaron is heading in the right direction here. When I was head of staff (10+ years ago), I was the "head storyteller", but other than the occasional inter-sphere arbitration, my main role was being a sounding board for players that had issues with staff members, and mediating conflict between players. Fostering the community that was built around the game was paramount, making sure that every voice was heard and FELT like it was heard.

I think that instating some sort of chairperson who's sole purpose is to foster community and present a safe place for players to go with concerns, along with managing the PA's, would be a huge boon to the game. I would suggest that you speak with Jaren, Wolf, Sarah, and Jason about their thoughts on the matter as well.

[Just Evan]

Sept 24, 2013 14:45:48 GMT -8 Brendan said:

Actions like ... tracking down your enemy and murdering him when he was retired are just disruptive, and shouldn't happen like that...

Hi! My name is Evan and I played a character that this happened to last week (or the week before). I'm not sure that I am the only one being referenced here, but since this specific case applies exactly to me -

My character was going to die. If not last week after I had retired him permanently, then at some point in the near future had I kept playing him. It's cool. It happens. I was playing a monster who diablerized people as part of a religious fervor to a dead blood god he wanted to return to judge the world and rule over like a mad king. Dudes like that aren't good news and losing the character was part of the deal when I created him.

We have a lot of things to be worried about as a community. I think it does us all a disservice to obfuscate the real problems we are facing as a gaming group by focusing on what happens to our ephemeral characters. I do not think HST Brendan or anyone else is attempting to purposely push an agenda of misdirection and I want to make it clear that I am not accusing anyone of such behaviors.

We don't trust each other. Some of us don't even like each other. Recently, a handful of former staff members were involved in CvC that ended some characters. Folks have focused on the loss of those characters and the absolutely huge amount of XP dumped into them. There have been accusations flying all around - that former staff abused their positions to set up a perfect kill box once they stepped down. That players had conspired to kill the PCs that staff had dumped all of their hard earned XP into after they stepped down as a form of griefing. I was part of the team that got killboxed. I can assure you that none of us were thinking "I gotta murder this PC to get back at the former staffer, mwahah". I've talked to the killboxers. I can assure you that none of them were thinking "Sweet! I've aligned the situation while on staff to perfectly facemurder the PCs of these guys who've been a pain in my ass for the last year".

(As an aside, I was a huge pain in the former staff's ass for the entire year and have earned their frustration without question).

As I said before, I think our problems are a lot deeper than the loss of specific PCs or how they died. I'm going to post my thoughts on that in this thread as well as some thoughts on what might help. If my words step on any toes, it might be better to move my posts to the Rant Board or maybe just their own thread. I'll trust the HST and Webmonkey to see that line.

I'll also try to keep this short.

Thanks for reading,
Evan

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

Sept 24, 2013 19:59:25 GMT -8 Victor Vaughn said:

I think that Aaron is heading in the right direction here. When I was head of staff (10+ years ago), I was the "head storyteller", but other than the occasional inter-sphere arbitration, my main role was being a sounding board for players that had issues with staff members, and mediating conflict between players. Fostering the community that was built around the game was paramount, making sure that every voice was heard and FELT like it was heard.

I think that instating some sort of chairperson who's sole purpose is to foster community and present a safe place for players to go with concerns, along with managing the PA's, would be a huge boon to the game. I would suggest that you speak with Jaren, Wolf, Sarah, and Jason about their thoughts on the matter as well.

Oh sweet merciful baby diety Joh- I would never wish the job of chairperson on another human being ever again.

Sounded amazing on paper amazing. working with staff was awesome. (Darling, I loved you being an HST) Dealing with how everything rolled down the hill was horrible, stressful and way too much for one person.


I like the idea of PAs. It's a group of folks that can support one another. BTW- don't we have a PA/RA board anymore?

[Victor Vaughn]

Sept 24, 2013 21:02:48 GMT -8 Iris "Chases-Rainbows" said:

Oh sweet merciful baby diety Joh- I would never wish the job of chairperson on another human being ever again.

Sounded amazing on paper amazing. working with staff was awesome. (Darling, I loved you being an HST) Dealing with how everything rolled down the hill was horrible, stressful and way too much for one person.


I like the idea of PAs. It's a group of folks that can support one another. BTW- don't we have a PA/RA board anymore?

It was a thankless, terribly stressful, time consuming and incredibly difficult job; but it worked. I didn't mind the few grey hairs it gave me at 20 years old, but I am an odd creature.

Even if the burden isn't placed on a single person, I think it is incredibly important to have some form of entity who's job isn't just to mediate conflicts, but to foster community as well.

[Just Evan]

The short version of what concerns me about EC:

1. We have too much XP in game. Please allow me to explain:
Its not unreasonable that any given player has over 500 XP invested into his or her character right now. I'm not talking about Darrin (player of Luthias), Kaine (Player of Illyana) or Broney (player of David Price). I'm talking about the PC I played for a year, Ioseph. I'm talking about my wife's character played on and off for a few months at a time. Think about your own character for a moment and how much XP is invested into the cool things you can do at game. Now think about the recent spates of character death. Has it made you think about your own character's mortality? Do you look down that steep precipice from your current total to what you'd be able to bring in on a new character if this one dies? Have you stopped spending XP on this character in the hopes of banking enough to be a bit useful in at least one or two specific tests with your next one? When someone gets rich, the fear of losing that resource can become overwhelming. It makes you angry at the idea that someone might take it all away from you, especially if you just got it and don't know what to do with it yet.

We've been given too much of a good thing and we are gripping it too tightly. It makes us emotional and irrational at the thought of losing it. My suggested solution? You are going to hate it. XP stops following the player and only follows the active character. No transferring it to your shelved character or banking it for your next concept. Everyone makes a new character on its own merits and only accrues in-game power through the long term investment of time into that character. We could even build in a system (maybe something random like a hat with XP amounts in it OR something more responsible like staff vetting any non-starting concepts and roping them in with enforced NPC or character goals) where new PCs don't just start with 15 freebies and a well-wish for good luck out there. There have been a lot of ideas about this. Talk to Rose, Jeff M, Nick B, Rob or a host of others about them. The ideas and players are pretty smart.

2. We have too much history in game. Yup, we need a reset.
We've had two Kue-Jin wars, a Setite arcology set over the ley line that supports life in this hemisphere, the plowstone that Caine killed Able with, two time jumping True Mages, two 4th Generation Monsters older than the current epoch of the world, two Justicars (at least), a score of archons, multiple red-listers, three (I think) Allastors, 10 princes (give or take) in less than 7 years, 4+ demons (not counting Harkness ), at least two artifacts that end the world, three plus wars with the sabbat, countless open masquerade breaches... shall I continue?

We've written a history that informs our characters actions and the state of the world. A lot of PCs at game complain that Seattle doesn't remember scandals from last year. The reality is that the players do. We don't want to press the stories of a previous staff too hard onto the current one unless invited. Current staff does not want to step on the toes of the stories told (and sometimes left open) by previous ones because they might not do it justice or they simply don't like it. All of these crazy histories are writ into the player base and the OOC stories get bigger in the telling, leading to new PCs being judged on actions made years previous under staffs that ran the rules entirely different.

Some history is awesome. Too much chokes the game. We need a hard reset to get out from the corners we've painted ourselves in. We need to get together, paint a new history for World of Darkness Seattle, work with the staff to figure out how our new characters are tied into this town and what we are all doing with each other. We can start building a new history and when the time is right, we can knock this sand castle down again and start all over with different ties and cross-linked stories.

3. We are too inclusive of obscure rules and powers. Again, please hear me out with this.
As a guy who got to play a stupidly-rare Assamite sorcerer; we allow too much weird into the game. It devalues the regular clans and leads to cold wars of building up crazy out of clan powers, rare paths of thaum and home-made rituals to counter the home made rituals your character's rival made up. We have now opened the game to rules published in suppliments not made for Revised Vampire including the Dark Ages line, 2nd Edition, some obscure first edition books and more homemade rules than I've been able to read through.

We've done it because this shit is cool. Seriously. The new Draiocht rules, Assamite exclusive sorcery, dark ages combo disciplines? Godzilla ain't got shit on how pimp these powers, merits and artifacts are. The problem is that this inclusiveness leads to the most well-read having the greatest benefit. What you don't know will literally kill your character (and you won't even know what power it was). We have too many cool toys to choose from and these cool toys are overshadowing good stories and compelling characters.

Let's dump everything and start over with V20 (I'd suggest Requiem, but I fear I'd get lynched). There are only a handful of V20 books and there are PDFs of all of them. A small, easily searchable database of rules we can literally CTRL-F to reference. I know a lot of cool stuff will go by the wayside, but the toys aren't the focus. The social-political relationships are. Let's get back to that. We'll need to make some minor changes to fit a LARP setting, but I think you'd be surprised at how minor they'd need to be.

Now, none of this directly answers the basic question Brendan asked in the original post. The items I've listed above compound and confound the basic question. XP bloat, conflicting and ridiculous game history as well as the extensive rules and reference material set up an environment where playing to win is rewarded. If playing to win is rewarded, we are playing a game and we are not a community; we are contestants.

If folks have an internal desire to set up victory conditions and win them, they should be allowed to. Goal setting is awesome. Lets clear some room for community as well. We need to revitalize the PA system and give these folks a reason to want to help us stay calm and get our shit worked out when it gets out of hand. We need enough PAs involved that we don't run the risk of involving all of them when an OOC social drama breaks out.

Finally, we need to stop hating on the staff and the staff needs to stop assuming the players are untrustworthy. Actual cases of misconduct need to be handled and beyond that we all need to treat each other with basic courtesy, even if we don't like each other.

There's my idea for stopping this ever widening gyre of social discord and frustration. Take with a grain of salt. Please do know that my intention is not to accuse ANYONE, current players or staff or former participants of anything willfully malicious. There are no hidden jabs intended in any of these statements. There are no calls for public shaming. I just want to get back to debating what use of disciplines are and are not allowed in a Camarilla Elysium and if the Anarchs are members of the Camarilla or not.

Thanks again for reading and your consideration.

[Just Evan]

Damn. That was the short version?

TL;DR of my above post:

1. Hard reset XP. XP follows characters, not players. Players have alternative methods of creating non-starting characters that are clear and equitable.

2. Hard reset game. Remove all current PCs, all history we have built in Seattle. Close the book and remember the stories fondly. Start new ones.

3. Drop all rules and move to V20 with minor clarifications for use in LARP. Disallow any material published in previous sources. Disallow homebrew rules.

4. We all wont ever like everyone else at game. We need to use the PAs to resolve OOC drama that relates to game and give the PAs a reason to slog through our bog of drama to help us. We need more PAs.

5. I'm not trying to single anyone out or undercut anyone's hard work. I am trying to resolve what looks like a serious and growing rift.

Anyone who wants to use this as an election platform, you have my vote once elections come around.

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

Sept 24, 2013 21:19:46 GMT -8 Victor Vaughn said:

Sept 24, 2013 21:02:48 GMT -8 Iris "Chases-Rainbows" said:

Oh sweet merciful baby diety Joh- I would never wish the job of chairperson on another human being ever again.

Sounded amazing on paper amazing. working with staff was awesome. (Darling, I loved you being an HST) Dealing with how everything rolled down the hill was horrible, stressful and way too much for one person.


I like the idea of PAs. It's a group of folks that can support one another. BTW- don't we have a PA/RA board anymore?

It was a thankless, terribly stressful, time consuming and incredibly difficult job; but it worked. I didn't mind the few grey hairs it gave me at 20 years old, but I am an odd creature.

Even if the burden isn't placed on a single person, I think it is incredibly important to have some form of entity who's job isn't just to mediate conflicts, but to foster community as well.

I will agree with that. And I would hope the PAs can foster a community. I do also like your idea of not exactly a chair*person* but chair people. That would be good.

Also totally with you on the grey hairs at 20. You didn't mind em since they made you not look 15. (You are still super adorable tho- grey hairs and all. I have to cover mine up )

[Webmonkey]

This thread doesn't quite feel like a rant to me, but if it does to others, let me know.

Toni there are PA and RA boards in answer to your earlier question.

I'd like to run Gehenna some time, I think it's neat and I enjoy running epic plots. I also enjoy early city tie ins. If my life ever settles down I might run on such a platform.

I do think the xp in play is way up, and I'm not sure that matters as much as people think it does.I love that we produce piles of blankets, scads of Halloween screams and lots of goods for Noel House and other charities. Kill my character every game if you want, but I'd fight tooth and nail to keep that going regardless of how unstoppable that makes X character. I don't care if Luthias lives forever as long as we keep doing that stuff, and XP motivates like nothing else.

The glut of powers won't change if we go to V20, as the Thaum book is due out in 2014, but I'd love to go whole cloth to V20, it's just cleaner and more well balanced.

I love this game, and this community, and I'm passionate about both, sometimes to a fault, but I like to think an occasional hiatus to werewolf keeps that to a dull roar in my old age.

Love you guys too, even if some of y'all piss me off sometimes.

Peace.

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

Oh. Hm. I signed up to be at PA back 2 months ago. I just figured I couldn't see the boards cuz we didn't have them anymore.

Thanks for the info.

Also- yes to the V20. totally yes to the V20.

[Katie Hester]

I would love to go to v20, with the understanding that previous material wasn't to be allowed.

[Jeff]

Regarding the PA Board

Yes, there is a PA/RA Board. The last post on the PA board was Jan 21, 2012

Yup, more than 20 months ago. Yeah, not really the most active group right now. I don't believe that die-down is anyone's fault, just something that happened. I am sad that a variety of rules changes didn't get some threads on that board for early player comment, in the past that helps engender more trust of rules that they had already been slightly vetted by the PAs/RAs. Course, maybe that is not the case anymore with the lack of PA community.

Perhaps we should have a thread on what the game would like the PAs and RAs to assist with, what their roles should be, things like that.

But, on this I do agree with Aaron. Managing the game and managing the community are different things. They have been traditionally part of the HST job, and a Charter was written specifically to give consistent guidelines to the HST. Speaking as a former HST, I can say that managing the community took more time and effort than telling the story when I was HST. I tried to insulate ASTs from that, so the balance of time was on the game side of things, but it didn't always work. Course, we had to deal with the whole game location thing.

If we do want to go a different route on empowering the managing of community separate from the game, then I think it would also work best to have a leader of that group, a Chairperson, a whatever, chosen by the vote of the players separate from the HST.

Anyways, my two cents at the moment.

PS: I agree with lots of what Evan posted, as in most things, its not the idea that people disagree with, its the details. If people want to work on details, or discuss options, or all sorts of things like that, I am happy to join in on those discussions

[Dimitri Vasilescu]

The only caveat I would have to Evan's stuff is that a Gehenna plot be run with the current platform so the current characters can end their stories. I'd be fine even if current staff ran with that, as it should be enough time for a reset platform by August. But pulling a hard reset should only be done if everyone has a chance to finish their stories (a CHANCE, that is, not that they are successful).

I would also say that no one should lose XP, especially current staff, but with a reset that a few things happen:
-No one can XP dump into new characters, but they can spend their accrued XP at a normal rate. This will at least slow things down the first few months and prevent any super characters from walking out the gate right away.
-While I think the base V20 is an awesome thought, I would say that we keep a few house rule stuff, mostly what Jaron has set up in Sabbat around Neonate, Ancilla and Elder packages, and especially the downtime action system that just makes a lot of sense and works really well with all systems, and can easily be fit for a better learning curve on influences.

[The Gentleman]

I'm just chipping in to say that I have a pretty complete revamp plan for which a few of us are hashing out the finer details. I'm happy to talk about it to anyone that wants to listen to me go on for a while

Also: I think this thread has veered wildly off topic from what Brendan was wanting people to talk about.

[Thornstar]

Yeah, the reset thing is completely separate from the perspective and role change need.

[Webmonkey]

I feel like the creation of a chairperson role to 'care for the community' is just another bit if Beaurocracy between treating someone like crap and repercussions of the same.

I feel like the lack of PA's in a strong role in the past was due to an HST who would rather just hash things out one on one like a person to another person.

I feel like the current HST is allowed his opinion, and allowed to voice it, just like any other member of then community can.

I feel like the changes to how the HST manages the game and the portion of the community that is playing vampire have made it the most fun I've had LARPing in a long time.

I feel like the outrage and lashing out of few have caused a large emotional backlash toward many, and that a newly minted HST is getting both barrels and trying to express a little frustration about the 'extremes'.

I feel like being reminded of social awareness is ok, following and supporting the charter is right, and giving people a little leeway when the get upset for a minute is common sense.

What actions do I think need to be taken to fix this? Increased openness and sensitivity by all concerned, meaning more listening and less driving home of points for their own sake. I count myself in that need. (Evidence: I'm clearly the only guy with two thumbs who thinks the daily stab should be Cam Only, lol). We seem to get in the most trouble when we try to speak for the feelings of others instead of ourselves. Maybe we should do more encouraging of others to step up and less willing to carry others' pitchforks as it were.

I'm just spitballing with the above. They're themes, not specific solutions, but perhaps they'll help someone gain another slice of perspective.

Peace.

[Iris "Chases-Rainbows"]

Communication is key too- Staff being available and willing to talk to all their players and timely and open communication.

There are some players who can't make the parties or have social anxiety or any number of things that leads them to feel left out which then can turn into feeling like an us vs then scenario.

And treating other players and staff like people instead of like the enemy- even when they question motives or operations is key to being a community. Reach out and extend a hand to be more human, and caring part of the community, rather than just a cog in the machine that is game.

And when you have that hand reached out to you- please take it.

There are a lot of personal histories and trials and tribulations that haunt any number of us.

Adversarial gaming is easier to deal with coming from friends rather than someone you used to like or someone you don't know so well, we should probably work to make peace with those demons. Before we make peace with the demons in game.