The game I actually want (Part 2)

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

People love their characters. People who lose their characters get peeved sometimes, and hey, rightly so. They are our darlings. It hurts to kill your darlings, but every good writer will tell you that you must. The story must come to a close. Without an end it becomes just eh... well porn isn't quite the right word, but perhaps Fanservice to the character you used to play. It's a shallow satisfaction for the player, and can manifest as a dire annoyance for others.

Jumping the shark is an idiom that was used to describe the moment in a TV show when it begins to uh, decline, which is usually a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of "gimmick" in an attempt to keep viewers' interest. Its name is taken from a scene from Happy Days when Fonzie jumps over a shark on water-skis.

The usage of "jump the shark" has subsequently broadened beyond television, indicating the moment when a brand, design, or creative effort's evolution declines.

If I had to put into a sentance a recent potential shark jumping moment, Durante accidentally killed the entire city of Shadowland Seattle, then Mad Tom punched him to death with the Freemont Troll.

Say it again. Say it out loud. Can you hear the Fonze? Totes magotes.

It's maybe not all that bad. Seriously, the story aspects always change with every staff, and what is over the top to me personally story wise is not always that big of a deal to others. There's a lot of room for perspective on that. I personally liked much of the aftermath of the Seattle Storm. I like the apocalyptic feel and the Kindred coming together and all of that. I think that's forgivable, because if you didn't like it, you just have to ask for another type of story for your personal character, or at the worst, wait, another storyteller will be along shortly.

I have a lot of difficulties with the way the game has been run recently though in terms of power availabilities and odd concepts. I've enjoyed the people running the game very much, and their dedication even more. Man these guys have been dedicated and I'll never fault them for not being so. I just want to say again how NOT a personal attack my opinions on how to run a game are. I love these humans and they try hard and deserve all props and credit for it. I have had more fun than not fun, securely in the fun side, and that's due to their hard work and love for the game and pure desire to tell us tales we'll enjoy, and I love that.

I think the game could use a reset however, because really odd stuff is too commonplace, there are waaaay to many house rules and too many books in play and I think the natural function of that should be to go system-wise to v20 and keep some of the exterior systems like influences, crafts and status with a few tweaks, a lot of which I've already discussed in my first post. (Part 1)

So the question for me is how to do a reset, and the answer comes from a successful three that I'm familiar with, one that I played through around 15 years ago, one I helped shepherd in about 10 years back and one that River's staff ran for Werewolf quite a few years ago. I think it's getting to be time again.

Clear expectations of what is allowed is needed and the staff needs to stick to them. (The second you let some people that are better at bargaining get their way around the expectations made, is the moment that the staff loses credibility and the moment that there was really no point in a reset in the first place. Write it down, point to it, and if folks don't like it, let 'em vote to change it and accept that with grace. It is the player's game after all.)

What worked in River's Werewolf reset was that they actually ran a story. They ran the Apocalypse and the characters involved actually got to be part of that story. Gehenna is a thing. Individual characters given agency to decide major plot points is pretty epic in that regard. Every character in Seattle should be asked by staff what they want their character's ultimate end to be and then try their damndest to weave that into the end game, giving players real involvement in the end of the world. How many near miss end of the world plots have there been over the years? Let's actually do this and do it right. Can we get special effects? Props? Music? Can we turn it up a notch for this kind of finale? I've got some ideas.

Four months-ish of ramping up the End of All Things is what's needed to tell some real stories and engage everyone.

NPCs and limited run characters should be on tap for those that don't make it to the end, because there will be a lot of cameos available. Your kooky kewl power that you already have a mentor for that the staff just can't quite see their to approving? Totes approved. Go run and play. It's the end of the world as you know it. You should feel fine.

I'm talking a real story here. I'm talking the Gehenna and Apocalypse and Ascension books read cover to cover and then every character background scoured for possible connections and key NPC's given a stake in the outcome through PCs and IC connections and that's just for background info. What this is really going to be about is the individual interests of each player's character getting funneled into several meta goals that will produce a number of possible endings built around player agency and choice. It will be polarizing as the prime forces of the cWoD universe and source material compete for the 'votes' of the PCs toward the end game.

River had a lot of success with the above formula, and there was not a big exodus from werewolf, rather folks stuck around, eager to see what came next. I questioned him a lot about it at the time because I was honestly very impressed. Naturally the themes of Werewolf are different than some of the other games, but the end of the world scenario(s) cover them all, and the key was that player characters were engaged in the story and had some very real agency and choices in the way the results panned out. The end of the world was personal.

It was their story, and I think that's awesome.

So that was what I learned from River's experience. My personal experience with this scenario is twofold:

First, I played through such a reset in Bellingham at a game called SPRAL. The result was pretty good. Not perfect, but the majority of players and storytellers were 17-20 years old. Creative, but inexperienced. It could have gone more smoothly, but the game came roaring back after a period where it had been stagnant for awhile and there was a lot of discontent due to overpowered nonsense, alligations of player/st favoritism and all of the other drama one might expect.

Second, during the transition from Seattle by Choice to Emerald Chronicles I was very much involved with the 'soft reset' of the vampire sphere, and was the first ST to initiate things like:
Influences,
Status,
a feeding system, (since been modified multiple times)
a multiple AST vampire staff,
Post Mortem for sharing stories,
Nominations for exceptional roleplay,
Event nights and event night XP,
XP for MVP nominations by Staff
Player and Combat Advocates (Now called Rules Advocates)
Background sheets,
Rare concept caps,
Storyteller surveys (something that has been lost over time - where staff actively regularly and pro-actively polls players about the game and what they like and loathe)
Every web and email resource,
and a host of other changes and upgrades that have survived the test of time.

---

Now we come to the beginning of the new world, and here's where I'd start. There are two key timelines that matter. The first is the world of darkness timeline and the second is the timeline of Seattle itself. There are key events in each of these that matter, and that cross over. From the Week of Nightmares to the Great Fire of Seattle, there were moments where these two worlds turned a corner and I want to give player characters (Not NPCs) a chance to engage with that history and become part of it from the get-go.

There are a list of important personalities in Seattle History to choose from. What if they were fair game to embody as a Kindred - but as any clan the player preferred? (Within cap guidelines)

Mercer as a Gangrel?
Doc Maynard as a Setite?
Denny as a Torador?
Lou Grahm (Mother Damnable) as a Nosferatu?
Yesler as a Gio?
Boren as a Tremere?

Your character's name on the streets of Seattle forever is a LOT of fun. You get to help build the world you'll play in, and that's the tits.

I'd like to see a lottery for Generation, where low gen rarity is based on percentages and everyone gets a shot at pulling an 8th out of the hat, but very few will get it. No favoritism, no storyteller gifts. Luck of the draw.

I'd like to see Elders, Ancillae and Neonates get a break on XP for the purchase of different things (Similar to the recent updates to MET, where for example Neonates pay less for backgrounds, signifying the ease of dealing with the mortal world).

I'd like to see percentages of XP on old sheets get refunded to players that smoothly manage the transition, in a way similar to the XP refunds given to players who handle character death with grace curently.

During the lottery and city building phase, I'd like to see folks OOC decide what their characters that were 'brought up' in Seattle did to react to and guide those events, giving them the opportunity to shape Seattle as they make choices. Rather than one or two old doddering farts talking about the 'good old days' I'd love to see what a group of frontier Kindred acted like when they were truly invested of the brick and mortar of a domain on a deep personal level. These can be made with simple WoD tests to see if things go well, are neutral, or go poorly for the 'prequel' phase of the characters.

I'd like to see backgrounds purchased "fire sale" style so that anyone that wants to be a part of the Seattle influence story using a simplified influence system can jump in with both feet and hit the ground runing at moment one. (In reality, influences aren't being run as written, they are being run as they *were* written, and I'd codify that.)

I'd like players to decide on the court before the instant of 'restart' occurs, and then let politics fall where they may, with the lush backstory of old allies and rivals now pre-built and woven in a tapestry that transcends the simple stereotypes that wite wolf provides for each clan's interactions. After a couple of centuries of choices (10-20 key events in cWoD and Seattle history) it should be clear where a good starting place for a court and Primogen council should be.

And I'd like it all to come from the couple of V20 books when it comes to rules, with some common sense house rules created as needed.

A clean slate with a familliar setting built by player choices from the ground up.

A clean ruleset with a level playing field.

A focus on character agency and personal horror where there's a story to be shared at every level.

---

That's what I'm on about. That's the kind of game I want, and if the the next staff doesn't run it, well, we'll see.

I am NOT running for HST this time around. Next time though? Maybe so. We'll see how these guys do. I said I'd never run vampire again unless it was Gehenna, and it may be time for that soon. Until then, I want to start the conversation. Maybe someone else will pick up the torch, I dunno.

Everytime a 7th gen Baali NPC with vicissitude and power armor strides into play I think harder about it. Everytime I hear about how mage merits like Legendary Attribute are being allowed to be created via the crafts system, or 13ag swords, or autofire crossbow bolts with incindiary rounds, or made-up thaum paths and combo disciplines that mirror and overpower 2nd Edition Dark Ages powers I think harder about it.

Just you think hard about it too. We'll keep talking and we'll see how it goes from here I guess.

Peace.

[Ikon]

Dec 30, 2013 3:56:48 GMT -8 Barnaby Cuthbert said:

I am NOT running for HST this time around. Next time though? Maybe so. We'll see how these guys do. I said I'd never run vampire again unless it was Gehenna, and it may be time for that soon. Until then, I want to start the conversation. Maybe someone else will pick up the torch, I dunno.

I think it's a shame that you have set up such a well thought out platform right in the middle of a time when other people are placing theirs, so we can choose the Best Storyteller for the Game. But I think it distracts and shines a light on all of the inequalities of the other Choices. Then you turn around and say 'But not me, not now.'

Why not?

You have a week to find your staff. Which should not be hard with the abundant number of people who are prepared to run as AST for a good platform. I think you could pick and choose and still have your staff in less than a day.

The game is already at the perfect precipice for a Gehenna game. Thinks are in place and the environment of Seattle is practically begging for it. You could run a 4 to 6 months of Gehenna plot while planning your perfect reset, which it seems you have most of what it Needs in mind already.

If you were waiting for the right time, This. Is. It.

Put your imagination and creative effort where your mouth is.

[BLewis]

Dec 30, 2013 7:59:47 GMT -8 Ikon said:

I think it's a shame that you have set up such a well thought out platform right in the middle of a time when other people are placing theirs, so we can choose the Best Storyteller for the Game. But I think it distracts and shines a light on all of the inequalities of the other Choices. Then you turn around and say 'But not me, not now.'

Why not?

You have a week to find your staff. Which should not be hard with the abundant number of people who are prepared to run as AST for a good platform. I think you could pick and choose and still have your staff in less than a day.

The game is already at the perfect precipice for a Gehenna game. Thinks are in place and the environment of Seattle is practically begging for it. You could run a 4 to 6 months of Gehenna plot while planning your perfect reset, which it seems you have most of what it Needs in mind already.

If you were waiting for the right time, This. Is. It.

Put your imagination and creative effort where your mouth is.

It's a large difference between "Here's what I'd like" and "I'm ready to do this now." Saying "Your opinion doesn't matter unless you're going to knee-jerk your response into happening now" isn't fair to anyone, yourself included. If it's "not now," then he's clearly taking the time to actually think through everything and plan it all out accordingly, rather than rushing a platform and staff through at the last second (which is what a one week announcement-to-run would be).

An idea, or an opinion, or an approach are not the only thing(s) necessary to execute them. Let him plan and don't try to pressure people into running. We've seen what happens when other people have made that mistake in the past, and the results are terrible for everyone involved.

[Ikon]

I can easily see why some people would not want Chris to run on a Reset platform. Reset's are scary.

You are right that there is a difference of what he wants to see and how he would try and bring it about. I just want to see if has any ideas on how to do that.

As for pressuring him... I'm not sure how long you have known Chris, but pressuring Chris doesn't really work. All you can do is give him ideas and encourage him he makes his own choices, and I think he is pretty comfortable with that.

[Ascanio Giovanni]

Everytime a 7th gen Baali NPC with vicissitude and power armor strides into play I think harder about it. Everytime I hear about how mage merits like Legendary Attribute are being allowed to be created via the crafts system, or 13ag swords, or autofire crossbow bolts with incindiary rounds, or made-up thaum paths and combo disciplines that mirror and overpower 2nd Edition Dark Ages powers I think harder about it.

I see we've once again reached the hyperbole portion of our ranting now. Let's go case by case here.

7th gen Baali NPC with Vicissitude and power armor: I can positively say that no such NPC was brought in under Sean's staff, and have never seen one in play personally. Nothing even close. But good job with the buzz words. That should inspire some fear and hatred.

Mage merits like Legendary attribute being allowed to be created with the crafts system: Please point out to me how this is done. I'll tell you right now, it can't. Crafted items (with the possible exception of Masterpieces which are supposed to be a mystical item reward at the end of a long involved and life threatening quest) cannot duplicate this merit. Again though, good try spreading the fear.

13 agg swords: Also not actually possible with the crafts system. Highest base sword would be the same Str + 5 that it was under the old system and an Ultra-Rare could take it to Str+8. If you required strength 10 to wield it for 2 flaws you could get up to Str + 10. Keep going, I love the accuracy thus far.

Autofire crossbow bolts with incendiary rounds: This one might actually be possible. Autofire crossbow is theoretically possible. But I have to ask, who cares? Seriously. Autofire is the same on a crossbow as it would be on an assault rifle, except that the crossbow does less damage. You can't aim when you auto fire so it provides no chance to stake. Now as for incendiary rounds, these are not the ultra rare thing they used to be. It is standard military practice that every third round in the clip is a tracer round these days. It isn't 1993 anymore and times have moved on. If we are going to play a real-time game, we need to account for things like this.

Made up thaum paths and combo disciplines: Close but not quite. PCs specifically cannot make up Thaum paths. The only listed system for this is Rego Magica, the path of path creating. And it takes a minimum of 15 years to create a path from 1-5, which is why under our staff this was just banned when we were writing the clarifications, despite someone specifically asking for it. Rituals and combo disciplines, yes. However, don't pretend this is a new thing. Homebrew powers were in play long before us. We just brought it out of the closet, wrote a system for it, and let everyone do the same thing following the same rules rather than having that ability to make new powers be reserved for the special few. So if you liked the old system of favoritism, by all means, let's take away the system that puts everyone on the same playing field.

…that mirror or overpower 2nd ed Dark Ages powers: 2nd ed and Dark Ages are thrown around as buzzwords a lot by those who haven't really read the system in depth. Would you please point out some specifics as to what about 2nd ed and Dark Ages is overpowered? I'll match you point for point with things from Revised, and more common things as well. The only difference I've found (and I have actually read the books unlike many who rail against things they haven't read) is that Dark Ages is generally better thought out and better written with far fewer exploitable loopholes.


So thanks for the hypocrisy and hyperbole once again, but fear mongering just won't cut it here. And when you swing around buzzwords like I've read here, that is all you are doing. I will kindly ask you to stop.

Once again, I have no problem with you sharing your opinions as you have every right to do here. Just please get your facts correct before you use them in support.

[BLewis]

Dec 30, 2013 12:26:16 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

7th gen Baali NPC with Vicissitude and power armor: I can positively say that no such NPC was brought in under Sean's staff, and have never seen one in play personally. Nothing even close. But good job with the buzz words. That should inspire some fear and hatred.

Not under Sean's staff is nice, but I'm aware of the NPC that is being referenced.

Dec 30, 2013 12:26:16 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

13 agg swords: Also not actually possible with the crafts system. Highest base sword would be the same Str + 5 that it was under the old system and an Ultra-Rare could take it to Str+8. If you required strength 10 to wield it for 2 flaws you could get up to Str + 10. Keep going, I love the accuracy thus far.

Strength + 15 + Agg is viable when you put Crafting up with magic. It's accurate.

Dec 30, 2013 12:26:16 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

Autofire crossbow bolts with incendiary rounds: This one might actually be possible. Autofire crossbow is theoretically possible. But I have to ask, who cares? Seriously. Autofire is the same on a crossbow as it would be on an assault rifle, except that the crossbow does less damage. You can't aim when you auto fire so it provides no chance to stake. Now as for incendiary rounds, these are not the ultra rare thing they used to be. It is standard military practice that every third round in the clip is a tracer round these days. It isn't 1993 anymore and times have moved on. If we are going to play a real-time game, we need to account for things like this.

Exchanging a small amount of damage for the much lessened noise on Crossbows is an exchange anyone with a desire for stealth would take.

Dec 30, 2013 12:26:16 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

So thanks for the hypocrisy and hyperbole once again, but fear mongering just won't cut it here. And when you swing around buzzwords like I've read here, that is all you are doing. I will kindly ask you to stop.

Attempting to speak from a standpoint of "I know everything that's in game" invalidates this. Please stop speaking from such a standpoint, as it is not true or accurate.

Dec 30, 2013 12:26:16 GMT -8 Ascanio Giovanni said:

Once again, I have no problem with you sharing your opinions as you have every right to do here. Just please get your facts correct before you use them in support.

See above.

[Vandal]

While I can agree with most of the points here I would just like to say that pretty much every crafted item you listed here are items that Vandal has or is in the process of making and every one of them is a combination of truly ridiculous efforts made to be good at crafting and forming Vultron with a tremere and the use of a combo discipline (it's not home brew don't panic) that I don't even have yet.  I am not using the crafts system to make these monsters.  I am using everything under the damn sun to make these monsters.

These items can not be made with crafts alone, not even close. Short of gadgets and masterpiece items the most you can give an item is a +3 to damage or what have you, which is pretty damn burly but hardly game breaking. That having been said, the crafting system is pretty crazy. Mainly because gadgets and masterpiece qualities are not truly quantified. The system is quite literally "whatever the STs will say yes to". This can lead to a bit of disparity on what they can and can't do, and will only become a wider disparity when a new staff comes in. No matter how good a hand off is, you do see a shift in how conservative a staff is every time there is a switch. So what one staff says is fine will be considered over/under powered by the next.  The biggest hurdle the crafting system is going to face is when a significantly more conservative staff steps up because items made in that staff's tenure will be much weaker.

Now that I've nerd raged over the particulars of the items mentioned I will say this.  I believe the game is due for a reset.  Partially because of the proliferation of weird stuff running around, partially because a volume of all our errata and house rules would have more text than the rules in the main book, and also because our in game lore has become SO weird.  Mystically speaking Seattle is not an important place.  There is no reason for a dozen "end of the world" plots to be centered on Seattle.  There is no reason for ancient elders to be sleeping beneath Seattle.  There is no reason for the various magical relics and artifacts that have been found in Seattle to be present there.  There is no reason for ancient vampires to get a wild hair up their ass and move to Seattle to claim praxis.  But all of these things have happened, because we want to tell cool stories and our setting is Seattle.  This is fine, and it will always be the way of things.  But the history of Seattle has become so flipping weird that I need a construction crane to suspend my disbelief while playing a game where I pretend to be a vampire.

[Kevin K]

Hey folks, sarcasm isn't going to help anyone's side or the community as a whole. I know that we're passionate about the game and the time we have all spent working in it and for it, but let's focus on facts and ideas here on the R&A board.

[Just Evan]

Everything else in the discussion aside, I do want to politely and honestly state that I back up the claim to something that could be classified as a 7th Gen Baali with Power Armor that has been active in game recently.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be rude. Just saying that as far as I know, yup. That has happened.

[Victor Vaughn]

Dec 30, 2013 23:57:12 GMT -8 Just Evan said:

Everything else in the discussion aside, I do want to politely and honestly state that I back up the claim to something that could be classified as a 7th Gen Baali with Power Armor that has been active in game recently.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be rude. Just saying that as far as I know, yup. That has happened.

Can confirm.

[Ophelia Tempest]

Jaron,

Words like "buzzwords" and "striking fear" are not necessary here. All of these are legitimate. This game has run rampant with crazy stuff and I personally believe a reset would be good for it. Chris isn't being a hypocrite, he's flatly stated several times that he will roll with it, and isn't playing the game he wants to but will still play the game.

Same with Todd, who's actually not really for the weird stuff, but was on staff for a minute and saw the crazy shit on people's sheets and then made a Sorcerer to try to combat it.

Staff sent Dylan, a Redlister, whose sheet was buffed to combat the city (not the PC) after my non-magic character, and two-ish PCs were able to take out this over-dotted, too-much-infernal-powers, basically limitless dots character.

It took ten werewolves, Hel - the Norwegian Goddess of the Underworld, Khalid - a HUGE NPC that others feared and couldn't take out together, and a Fremont Troll to take down one PC in game.

The game is unbalanced for those not playing a magic character. I've never played a magic character, and I'm playing one now. I'm playing one with a few extreme disadvantages built into the sheet because I like a harder game, but the level of separation is huge.

There are so many cookies and snowflakes in the game that it's the norm. I couldn't bring in a non-magic PC with 1000 XP on their sheet and stand a chance against nearly any of the magic users. And I get that's how it's supposed to be. It's world of darkness.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. I'm not a big systems person. I'm don't metagame or build sheets to win. I just want story.

But when all of the Gangrel and Bobby Brujah and Mac the Malk ALL have magic on their sheet, it's so flawed. PCs should be able to look and be like, "Oh, Tremere - oh, Giovanni. Maybe even oh, Assamite or Setite." But when so many PCs of "mundane" clans have snowflakes and magic and powers, everyone is just going to get lost in the snowstorm eventually and just lose sight of the story in the snowstorm.

[BLewis]

A base char-gen City Gangrel can kill just about anything. I really don't think "omg wtf magic" is at fault. Its knowing the system, your target, and your setting.

[Ophelia Tempest]

When every single magic clan (almost) has access to, "If an attack is heading my way I teleport away," I don't think they can. Maybe, if they try lots of times, but if that base char-gen City Gangrel (also a snowflake) is known to be the attacker and the magic-users go after him, he is f'd.

And I'm not just referring to magic, either. That was just the most prominent example.

[Katie Hester]

Dec 31, 2013 9:01:24 GMT -8 BLewis said:

Its knowing the system...

Very true. However, how does the average person know the system when we're pulling from 3-4 systems, separate house rules, and allowing people to create all of their own system stuff?

We have 2nd Ed, Revised, Dark Ages, and some nWod. I don't have all of those books and trying to dig though that many books to find a specific rule is a pain. Not to mention how intimidating that is to new players who are told that we are running using revised and find out differently after the fact...

[BLewis]

One ritual allows "teleporting away", otherwise it's up to Delay the Incantation + Path of Mercury, which is generally considered to be Tremere territory. A Camarilla clan. Using Revised material. The ritual in question is from a very obscure book, and staff has been trying to limit its entry into game. However, players continue to bully it in.

A regular Gangrel can kill characters just as easy. Core book. Agg claws.
A Toreador can kill pretty easily. Core book. Celerity and a knife.
Brujah, easy killers. Core book. Potence and Celerity.

Honestly, the degree of "weird stuff" (so long as it's actually Vampire material) adds depth to the game and removes a lot of metagaming potential. Instead of "He's a Tremere, and we're only using the core book, so here's his worst-case-scenario strengths and weaknesses," its "Well, who has any idea what paths he has? Rituals? Uh, what've we got?"

Yes, it's easier for general knowledge of rules to have people all work from a very small amount of material, but it's also been a general requirement people have their source material. If you can't produce the base rules, your crazy powers don't work. And there was that whole fundraiser thing that got staff a bunch of tablets to have access to all of the books.

[BLewis]

Dec 31, 2013 9:09:34 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Dec 31, 2013 9:01:24 GMT -8 BLewis said:

Its knowing the system...

Very true. However, how does the average person know the system when we're pulling from 3-4 systems, separate house rules, and allowing people to create all of their own system stuff?

We have 2nd Ed, Revised, Dark Ages, and some nWod. I don't have all of those books and trying to dig though that many books to find a specific rule is a pain. Not to mention how intimidating that is to new players who are told that we are running using revised and find out differently after the fact...

To put it bluntly, a new player isn't going to have the XP to buy things from all of the books available. The argument is like saying "You're new to game, here's your blacked out character sheet of core book material, because that's what you expect to use." It doesn't stand up. And if the earlier suggestion of "Custom material becomes publicly accessible" goes through, that further removes the argument. If the STs just put up on the website somewhere "Here's a list of books we're using, and here's custom material," it removes the excuse that drove at least one person to use information borne of short staff time to come in to try to kill players' characters.

[Ophelia Tempest]

Dec 31, 2013 9:15:18 GMT -8 BLewis said:

And there was that whole fundraiser thing that got staff a bunch of tablets to have access to all of the books.

Good point.

So are you saying that you are not for a reset, or you are not for removing the 'weird' stuff from the game?

[BLewis]

Dec 31, 2013 9:30:28 GMT -8 Ophelia Tempest said:

Dec 31, 2013 9:15:18 GMT -8 BLewis said:

And there was that whole fundraiser thing that got staff a bunch of tablets to have access to all of the books.

Good point.

So are you saying that you are not for a reset, or you are not for removing the 'weird' stuff from the game?

Removing mystery for the World of Darkness does no one any good.

[Katie Hester]

Dec 31, 2013 9:22:24 GMT -8 BLewis said:

To put it bluntly, a new player isn't going to have the XP to buy things from all of the books available. The argument is like saying "You're new to game, here's your blacked out character sheet of core book material, because that's what you expect to use." It doesn't stand up. And if the earlier suggestion of "Custom material becomes publicly accessible" goes through, that further removes the argument. If the STs just put up on the website somewhere "Here's a list of books we're using, and here's custom material," it removes the excuse that drove at least one person to use information borne of short staff time to come in to try to kill players' characters.

There are a number of players that were brand new to the game that have plenty of xp to buy plenty from many of the books available, between the summer fundraiser and the haunted house, a new player is looking at a minimum of 250xp and up to as much as 500xp. Add in the up-coming winter fundraiser that I hear is due soon, a new player is really solid on xp.

Also, Todd's concept (since you appear to referencing that as my concept is a pretty simple Toreador with some interest in the Ventrue) was one aimed at defense, not at killing and doesn't have anything that others in game didn't already have and that he already knew was in game before he went on staff. He didn't get off staff with the intention of killing yours or anyone else's character, but to ensure that his and his regent didn't die like a punk without a chance.

It's unfortunate that your character died. I and Todd both know that as things went down was not as you intended nor what you were told was going to happen with the various lores that you have. Sucks, but the destruction of the city was what staff decided to run with and with the IC knowledge that most of the city has about the situation, that was the action that our superiors chose to take. I can definitely imagine and sympathize with the frustration that you probably feel. However, that wasn't Todd's fault nor was that his goal coming off staff.

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My point was not everyone is a systems expert and there are several different systems in game which makes learning all of the systems even more daunting. Staff may have 6 tablets, but that doesn't help all of the players at game know what is possibly being used and it's not always convenient to stand around half an hour trying to find the pertinent rule at hand.

Saying that a new player can't buy it anyhow or your dig at Todd's character does not make my point any less valid.

[Victor Vaughn]

Dec 31, 2013 9:58:43 GMT -8 Katie Hester said:

Dec 31, 2013 9:22:24 GMT -8 BLewis said:

To put it bluntly, a new player isn't going to have the XP to buy things from all of the books available. The argument is like saying "You're new to game, here's your blacked out character sheet of core book material, because that's what you expect to use." It doesn't stand up. And if the earlier suggestion of "Custom material becomes publicly accessible" goes through, that further removes the argument. If the STs just put up on the website somewhere "Here's a list of books we're using, and here's custom material," it removes the excuse that drove at least one person to use information borne of short staff time to come in to try to kill players' characters.

There are a number of players that were brand new to the game that have plenty of xp to buy plenty from many of the books available, between the summer fundraiser and the haunted house, a new player is looking at a minimum of 250xp and up to as much as 500xp. Add in the up-coming winter fundraiser that I hear is due soon, a new player is really solid on xp.

Also, Todd's concept (since you appear to referencing that as my concept is a pretty simple Toreador with some interest in the Ventrue) was one aimed at defense, not at killing and doesn't have anything that others in game didn't already have and that he already knew was in game before he went on staff. He didn't get off staff with the intention of killing yours or anyone else's character, but to ensure that his and his regent didn't die like a punk without a chance.

It's unfortunate that your character died. I and Todd both know that as things went down was not as you intended nor what you were told was going to happen with the various lores that you have. Sucks, but the destruction of the city was what staff decided to run with and with the IC knowledge that most of the city has about the situation, that was the action that our superiors chose to take. I can definitely imagine and sympathize with the frustration that you probably feel. However, that wasn't Todd's fault nor was that his goal coming off staff.

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My point was not everyone is a systems expert and there are several different systems in game which makes learning all of the systems even more daunting. Staff may have 6 tablets, but that doesn't help all of the players at game know what is possibly being used and it's not always convenient to stand around half an hour trying to find the pertinent rule at hand.

Saying that a new player can't buy it anyhow or your dig at Todd's character does not make my point any less valid.

As someone whom has been back to game for about 6 months, I missed the summer fundraiser by a week and I wasn't able to help with the haunted house, so the amount of XP I have is incredibly limited. Just pointing out that not all new players are "solid" on XP.