Timeline of Last Week

[Squirrels / Constant]

Alright everyone. So, we have definitely heard the complaints about what happened this previous game and honestly, I do agree that it was a pain in the ass.

So, with that in mind, we are going to put this poll up, since this effects everyone. Considering the number of people that were involved, this is the only fair way we can decide something like this, as other people were still doing things based on it being 1 week further along.

The reason it is only a yes or no answer is because we'd like a solid decision one way or the other.

A couple of things I'd like to address though about the situation I'd just like to keep in mind.

1) While I agree, having half the game in a previous week scene is a royal pain in the ass, please understand, none of these people were forced to go into a "retro" scene. Each player made the conscious decision to be brought into that scene. Mind you, I do understand character reasons for doing so, but the player of the character made the decision.

2) Could this have been handled any differently? I'm sure it could have. But, people need to understand at the same time, your ST staff was there dealing with this since 8:30pm already. The moment MASS amounts of people get involved, things will always slow down drastically. Some of the "extra challenges" were there for the players benefit. These challenges did lead to more time spent, but created a fair chance in the situations. Our rule of "everything has a test" means the ST's don't just say "they get away."

3) A comment was made that this combat wasted peoples time for those of whom were not involved. Honestly, I will admit, I'm slightly offended by the statement as we were doing everything in our power to make this as smooth as we could. Including being there before normal game time to try and help resolve this. Your STs invest just as much time in this game trying to make things work. Plus, there were 2 STs in Elysium and just under half the game still there while this "other time" scene was happening. Yes, people may have been waiting to interact with others stuck in the other scene, but that doesn't mean there isn't things to do and people to interact with. I do understand peoples frustration with how things went, but please, try not to say we wasted your time, as that means there is very little appreciation for the hard work STing this game is.

Now, I'm sure I'm going to take a bit of flack for The 3 points I was making, and I will respect what people have to say about it. Like I said, I DEFINITELY understand your frustration for the situation. It even frustrated me. Sometimes these things happen. Your ST team IS human after all. I'd like to move forward in this and help find a resolution that best suits this game. So, I'm open to suggestions.

As well, please, don't hesitate to write to me directly, or even leave me a private message here on these boards if you'd like to discuss this with me. I have no problem with constructive criticism. In fact, I encourage it.

Thanks for taking the time to go through all this. I look forward to working on making this situation both better and avoiding this situation in the future.

[David Price]

If done, how would it be handled? Would this coming weekend be Aug 6th or Aug 13th in game time? If the former, when do we "catch up"?

I think the STs did a good job of keeping interesting things running on both ends, I was mostly a little confused at how communication between people in different weeks (if it turns out that they were in different weeks) was supposed to work. To be honest, I can only hope that when it's Arlo's turn to go out that he goes with half as much of a bang as Victor did.

[Chilli]

Just a note, Mikey (Gavin) has given his thumbs up as well. Just to remind you. ;-)

[Squirrels / Constant]

From discussion at the ST meeting, we're not sure how "catch up" would work. Perhaps the world is missing 7 days. *chuckle* Suggestions?

[Mike Lohmann]

We all go to Taco Bell and order a ton of burritos. *nods nods*

Oh... wait.. suggestions about the timeskip thingy.

Uhhhhhhh.....

Ummmmmmm. Damn.. thats a good question. i think that perhaps whatever RP we did on sat, before the whole flip flop time shift thingy, should actually count-ish. Like.. take my post for example. Rolf got into that combat last game, and he did that -way- before all the stuff happened. I tweaked it a bit to look like it happened during the week. Besides. The Elysium is not open just on saturdays. Its open all the time. Sooooooo...... yeah, and stuff.

[Kenneth Ashland]

Hmm...sure...

The combat was an extension of the previous game, and the Elysium action was...

...was what happens on a Wednesday in Elysium?

[Mike Lohmann]

Meh. Its the only -safe- thing i can come up with, without deleting the nights RP.

OMg.... i have become a forum lurker.... >.<

[Kenneth Ashland]

rolf said:

OMg.... i have become a forum lurker.... >.<

Don't worry, it happens to the best of us.

Especially those of us who just have a window open in the background while they're at work...

[Joseph Mayek]

I'm not a lurker, damn it. I'm... just... uh... yeah, Oh! I forgot to close the browser, that's all!

[The Aquarian]

Question: Do we have a system for Mass Combat rules? Being that I don't tend to make combat characters, I haven't really been involved with many combats.

If not, if you like, I can talk to my former STs in different larps to see how they came to the ones we used there. Like in many games, combat used to take up hours, for something that IC occurs in 30 seconds. When the mass combat rules came out, combat still took a long time, but at least it generally go for the entire evening as it used to.

[Squirrels / Constant]

Mass combat from MET is drastically different than in ModDot. I don't believe there is an easy system from the book for Mass Combat, sadly.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

My .02 on this whole thing:

1. I call this Coulda shoulda, woulda. It means nothing, and is not a dis on any of the staff at all. I think they stayed cool under pressure largely and all rock my proverbial casbah. They are fair, they try hard to be fair, and they take criticism better than most. Under my regime tho, the Sabbat involved in the combat with Victor would have "gotten away" for the week. Midweek actions such as spying on their haven over email, readying influences to cover up breaches, etc would have been allowed, but entering combat would not have been ok. I was a strong proponent of keeping this weeks stuff this week. That way, come the second week, essentially the same attack could have occured, with a nearly identacle outcome and there would be no time-screw.

I got flack for that policy as an ST, but it works. There are certain times where OOC realities should preceed the preferences of 'realism' and mas combat that begins at the end of a game should be one of them fo sho.

2. As far as 'catch up' goes, I don't see any reason to change the dates that things are happening in game forward a week. That's too much junk to keep up with for this many people. (I won't even to begin how funky that would make an already tenuous cross sphere interaction) My thought is that last 'Victor Death' Saturday and 'The Court meeting that wasn't' Saturday, both happened, and the most recent 'was a much more uneventful Saturday than everyone supposed' last week as many were 'out' patrolling the domain, licking wounds etc. The Prince got called on the phone by an Archon or something and postponed the court meeting until next week. Smooth things over, don't create *more* retroactive time-screw questions by mucking a ton with events and move forward in real time.

3. For those who think MET is a better combat system, it's not. There is no way around it, mass combat runs long usually. Creating an entirely new system for mass combat is not a simplification, it's a mess. It requires training of players, most often on the spot, it spawns *endless* debates over statistics and fairness, and is a poor option IMHO.

Mass combat is long or short because of factors like:

• How many people are in the combat
  
• How comfortable the STs are with the rules that come up.
  
• How comfortable the players are with the rules that come up.
  
• How much the players are willing to work with the ST at the time.
  
• How many NPCs are involved/kewl powers utilized.
  
• How many STs are present.
  
• Whether the STs have a plan and stick to it, and work efficiently in tandem, and not at cross purposes.
  
• How effective the STs are at directing the players along through the combat process
  
• If it's a tuesday.
  

There are quite a list of factors, and surely I've forgotten at least one or two. Also, mass combat is somewhat rare (for obvious reasons) so the opportunity to get 'good' at it isn't likely to come easily, for any involved. Just wanted to bring in that reality check.

Anywho, I'm voting in line with what I just mentioned, and throwing a nudge to the STs to remind them of why I was such a hardass about this kind of thing - to avoid this kind of stuff.

[The Aquarian]

vampirest said:

Mass combat from MET is drastically different than in ModDot. I don't believe there is an easy system from the book for Mass Combat, sadly.

In the MET larps we did, the combat rules had more to do with making sure everyone knew what everyone was doing and when than actual mechanics differences. It seems like alot of what slows combat down is people not being sure who is going when, what they are doing and what they are reacting two. Actually making tests is a fairly quick processes, it's figuring out what tests to make and how to react to them that seem to get messy in my observation.

Additionally, most people don't know this, but I AST for Mage on www.sierradreams.us (shameless self promo), so we deal with mass combat in table top rules rather frequently actually. Although staff that have never LARPed disagree at times, running and maintaining an Online game with 200-500 characters is more like a 24/7 LARP than a table top group. I've seen STs run really smooth combats with multiple people and I've seen STs run really horrible choppy ones. I'm more than willing to talk to the good ones and gather their own tips.

Heck I even have a few ideas for systems that I've been wanting to test out, and could probabally round up a few combat monkies and people that have kewl powers and don't want to show off IC for mock combats to test em.

[Kaine Chandler]

I know a group in St. Louis that has streamlined mass combat but it removes alot of individual choices, this having just been mentioned as a source of time suckage, i wonder what our players think of reducing the individual actions as an OPTION for mass combat situations?

[Alex Rourke]

OK, so while I wasn't part of the combat this past weekend I think Kaine's got a fair idea with mass combat, going with something like Are you: A: Attacking, B: Holding, C: Running etc. In combat I see limitless opportunities to do crazy stuff, like spend blood, split your action, pop feral claws and hit some one twice (only once after the claws are there). While I kinda hate the idea of "standardizing" actions, combat that takes two hours to get through is insane.

I distinctly recall (back in the days of Nathan/Nadine/Gabe) playing Ian in a wearhouse raid against the Sabbat with a Tzimisce Koldun in which we ended up running the scene for something like an hour and a half as our hard working STs ran around like chikens without heads.

However, I also remember a mass combat with Sabbat (that Kaine took part in) while BJ was interim between Nathan and Chris' runs as STs, in which it was:

BJ: "What are you doing?"

Me: "I'm going to charge said Sabbat bad dude and stake him with the pool que."

BJ: "Got it, Charge attack." turns to next guy in combat, "What're you doing?"

And so on, in which case combat went pretty quick with the ST having a gerneral idea of our actions. I think all in all that combat lasted maybe 30 or so minutes, with a coterie of about 7 PCs, about 5 NPC Sabbat members and about 3 NPC archons. That was solid. Not that our current STs aren't, because they, in my honest oppinion, have brought a lot of factors into vampire (ie the influence grid system that works pretty well.) And I deffinatly agree with Schetzle in that our game really doesn't get a lot of mass combat, so I can see where finding that fix wouldn't be top of the list, though I'm sure it's there. But that's just my 2 cents.

[Barnaby Cuthbert]

I distinctly recall (back in the days of Nathan/Nadine/Gabe) playing Ian in a wearhouse raid against the Sabbat with a Tzimisce Koldun in which we ended up running the scene for something like an hour and a half as our hard working STs ran around like chikens without heads.

It is my sincere (and I believe informed) opinion that a key reason for those STs ineptitude with Mod-Dot came from their very short time of playing with it. They came, they played for a few months, had their little coup and then all the sudden they were in charge. Of course they didn't know what they were doing. And they had some issues. I once asked Naydene about Mr. Hat's influences and was met with a burst of tears and a bunch of other histaronics. Clearly she was hanging on by a thread at the time. I hear she's much better now.

However, I also remember a mass combat with Sabbat (that Kaine took part in) while BJ was interim between Nathan and Chris' runs as STs, in which it was:

BJ: "What are you doing?"

Me: "I'm going to charge said Sabbat bad dude and stake him with the pool que."

BJ: "Got it, Charge attack." turns to next guy in combat, "What're you doing?"

BJ not only knew in his head what everyone's stats were, (he'd reviewed them all at the reset) but was running the combat in his head as well, just comparing straight stats instead of throwing chops in most situations. He was a literal rain man about statistics and could do all of the math in his brain. That's rad, but pretty unrealistic. Not everyone has the merits eidetic memory and lightning calculator in real life, and expecting your STs to is sort of asking to be dissappointed. If you don't believe me, ask him.

I know a group in St. Louis that has streamlined mass combat but it removes alot of individual choices, this having just been mentioned as a source of time suckage, i wonder what our players think of reducing the individual actions as an OPTION for mass combat situations?

There's always a balance you have to strike as an ST (and as a player frankly) between realism with measurable results and simplicity.

I see both sides of this. If I've spent time, XP and a lot of effort researching a combo discipline, combat technique, certain ritual or martial art style and am looking forward to using it to kick ass and take names only to be told that the STs are streamlining the combat and tough titties on my badassed wire-fu action, I'm gonna be pissed off.

On the other hand, mass combat that takes the whole game is lame then. (I personally have thought the HUGE wave of awesome posts proves that the combat was an epic story driver)

So it depends. Do we say, no combo disciplines, combat techniques, die pool splitting, etc... and screw the combat characters, or do we hunker down and try to deal with the fact that mass combat is coming again soon, and try to be as players as focused on moving things along smoothly as we can by learning the rules and having our stats ready to go when asked, and being attentive to the STs. You can probably see where my opinion is leaning.

[Joseph Mayek]

I'd much rather the hunkering down. I say this from a perspective that I've played with mass combat rules, the no disciplines, no real detail to the combat, damage dealt to a person at random. Just dice rolled for each "team". Hey, it -was- fast. But, eh.. not something I particularly liked, just seemed to have more cons than pros.

[Kaine Chandler]

Ok, so first, the system i know of is not quite as simple as Rick and Chris seem to think, I said it removes alot of individual actions, not all. Second, cool combat maneuvers can always be played out in smaller fights, the kind of combat that this system is used for is over 8-10 people,which if you've ever been in or witnessed (not in a movie) are very chaotic and you don't really have time to do alot of fancy stuff anyway cause you're too busy fighting for your life. and three, like so many things in the system, it can always be considered an option, which is to say, if the majority of players involved in the scene want to do it the long way, they still can, but the shot cut would be there for when what you really want to do is get back to elysium with the news, or when post mortem is only 15-20 minutes away and you don't want to wait until next week to find out who died...

[Ivaret]

I'm actually with Drake on this one. I played the same system he's talking about. It sucked big donkey balls. I specifically recall a 7th gen Old Clan Tzimisce getting pwned by a 12th gen Lasombra. It disgusted me. Lex is the worse system I've ever played. Word.

And, to be honest, I don't feel the slight bit cheated about last weeks game. So, I wasn't in the fight. Darn. I played anyways. I didn't let it effect my night. I talked to the same people I would have, and if anyone had died, Ivaret wouldn't care anyways.

Overall, I think it just stems from people that didn't really have much to do that night. THe only person I think really has any reason to stress over timeline is Ross. Poor Ashland's gunna die iffin it's not part of the first week. And -that- would be the only reason I'd add last week to the week before. To give him his shot at keeping his character. Other than that... there's really no need.

[Kenneth Ashland]

While I appreciate the thoughts, Ethan, I do not expect, nor would I want, space-time to be adjusted for any one character; mine or otherwise.

This is, after all, a group endeavor.

I'll eat the week if that's what's decided. It won't really alter the coming chain of events, either way.